Hindi pronunciation irregularities

[ber]

I'm going to try to sum up all Hindi pronunciation irregularities, ie. cases where pronunciation doesn't strictly follow what's written in Devnagri. My study is based on infos I have gathered until now, mainly listening to NRIs, films and radio. Of course pronunciation depends on accents and dialectal variations, but I'm trying to draw general rules.

- Articles
यह is pronounced /ये/. वह and वे are both pronounced /वो/.

- Isolated ह
When ह is preceded by an अ, this अ is pronounced /ए/. Examples : सुबह -> /सुबेह/, रहना -> /रेहना/, गहराई -> /गेहराई/. It seems there are exceptions, like रहना when used as an auxiliary for the present and past progressive tenses, यहाँ, कहाँ, तरह, etc.
When ह is preceded by an अ and has himself only the inherent अ vowel, the previous अ is pronounced ए and ह's inherent अ is pronounced /ऐ/. Examples : महल -> /मेहैल/, अहम -> /एहैम/, महत्वपूर्ण -> /मेहैत्वपूर्ण/.

- Final consonant clusters with final र
They are splitted. An अ is introduced. Examples : पुत्र -> /पुतर/, उम्र -> /उमर/, फ़िक्र -> /फ़िकर/.

- Final व after आ
A final व after an आ is pronounced ओ. Examples : पुलाव -> /पुलाओ/, अमृता राव -> /अमृता राओ/, चुनाव -> /चुनाओ/.
A final व after an आँ is pronounced ओं. Examples : पाँव -> /पाँओं/, गाँव -> /गाँओं/.

- Final य after अ
When a final य is preceded by an अ, this अय is often pronounced /ऐ/. Examples : अभिनय -> /अभिनै/, अजय -> /अजै/, विषय -> /विषै/.

- Various exceptions
Consonants with nuktas are often pronounced as if there was no nukta. ज़रूर is pronounced /ज़ेरूर/. ज्ञ is pronounced /ग्य/. न is often pronounced /ना/.


Can you confirm and complete what I wrote? And maybe correct it?

[crazyone]

With issues like ( ज्ञ is pronounced /ग्य/ ), and (Examples : पुत्र -> /पुतर, उम्र -> /उमर) they may just have to do with the difficulty of pronouncing the 'correct' way.  I always thought 'gyan' was pronounced like 'jnan' because that is how it is pronounced in Sanskrit, and the syllable itself is clearly made from 'ja' and 'na' (the one that goes with the row for 'ga, ja,' etc.).  Similarly with words like putr there is supposed to be a slight inherent vowel after the r, a little bit softer than there would be in "Brahmaputra".  In older songs, where there is often a high emphasis on good diction, I have heard 'umr' pronounced similarly, not as 'umar' but as 'umra' but with the inherent vowel being very very slight. 

[mala]

Examples : महल -> /मेहैल

Am I reading this right?

MAH - HAHL in English.

Mai-Hayl as per your Debnagari example.

If yes, then I have another pronounciation to add:

MAH-HeL as per my guide's pronounciation, a native to Agra. Throughout UP, AP and Bengal  महल = MAH-HEL.

[Daniel]

here are some of my thoughts.  None that disagree with you, more that reflect different things I have heard.

I agree with crazyone.  Really I hear a mix of the three. Umra i seem to hear in phrases like "umra bhar" and less in simple uses like "us ka ka umar hai."

I think for your phonetic rendering of gao.n you should include a nasalization.  At least thats how I hear it.  

for the final -ay, I seem to hear both, depending on region and such. /bhojanalay/ and /bhojanalai/


 सुबह -> /सुबेह/  this is really interesting.  Ive only noticed it as /subah./  But I've never heard anyone pronounce it correctly except maybe in chaste poetry recitations as /subh/.

Great work ber, you really did pretty much sum it up, which is not an easy thing to do!  thanks!

[ber]

Thanks for the precisions, crazyone.
Mala, I don't understand your transliterations. If you can't use Devnagri, can you at least use IPA or Itrans?

I think for your phonetic rendering of gao.n you should include a nasalization.

That's what I did. Maybe you have some problem with your font.

सुबह -> /सुबेह/  this is really interesting.  Ive only noticed it as /subah./  But I've never heard anyone pronounce it correctly except maybe in chaste poetry recitations as /subh/.

I heard that one from someone who learnt Hindi mainly orally so I think he just repeated what he heard. He's lived in Gujarat and Maharashtra.

Great work ber, you really did pretty much sum it up, which is not an easy thing to do!  thanks!

Thank you. I had never read such explanations anywhere, that's why I decided to start this thread.
Btw feedback from native speakers are most welcome. (Palacerani? )

[Gajanan]

वह and वे are both pronounced /वो/.

This is not how I've been taught it, which is that वह is pronounced वो, but वे is pronounced as it is spelt.  Is this a regional variation?

[palacerani]

वह and वे are both pronounced /वो/.

This is not how I've been taught it, which is that वह is pronounced वो, but वे is pronounced as it is spelt.  Is this a regional variation?

Now that I think back, me too Gajanan. Ve is a word by itself and not a pronunciation difference.

[ber]

वह and वे are both pronounced /वो/.

This is not how I've been taught it, which is that वह is pronounced वो, but वे is pronounced as it is spelt.  Is this a regional variation?

Now that I think back, me too Gajanan. Ve is a word by itself and not a pronunciation difference.

Actually I've heard both pronunciations. Palacerani, can you give us your opinion on the other pronunciation remarks?

Daniel, since I wrote my message, I've heard Kajol and Amitabh Bachchan saying /सुबेह/ for सुबह.

[palacerani]

Actually I've heard both pronunciations. Palacerani, can you give us your opinion on the other pronunciation remarks?

Daniel, since I wrote my message, I've heard Kajol and Amitabh Bachchan saying /सुबेह/ for सुबह.

Subah/subeh, Mahal/mehel...these are just the way they are pronounced differently. The correct written form is subah and mahal.

[ber]

Actually I've heard both pronunciations. Palacerani, can you give us your opinion on the other pronunciation remarks?

Daniel, since I wrote my message, I've heard Kajol and Amitabh Bachchan saying /सुबेह/ for सुबह.

Subah/subeh, Mahal/mehel...these are just the way they are pronounced differently. The correct written form is subah and mahal.

Well, knowing the differences between spelling and pronunciation is the only goal of this thread.
As a native speaker, do you agree with what I wrote in the first post? Is it the way you pronounce these words?

[palacerani]

Well, knowing the differences between spelling and pronunciation is the only goal of this thread.
As a native speaker, do you agree with what I wrote in the first post? Is it the way you pronounce these words?

Yes I do. Except fot the Putr/puttar thing. Puttar is used by Punjabis. I say putr. I say umar instead of umr and fikar instead of fikr.

[Daniel]

वह and वे are both pronounced /वो/.

This is not how I've been taught it, which is that वह is pronounced वो, but वे is pronounced as it is spelt.  Is this a regional variation?

Almost no where have I ever heard any normal person chose to say ve instead of voh for either the plural or the singular.  As far as I have heard, saying voh would be more standard.

[palacerani]

वह and वे are both pronounced /वो/.

This is not how I've been taught it, which is that वह is pronounced वो, but वे is pronounced as it is spelt.  Is this a regional variation?

Almost no where have I ever heard any normal person chose to say ve instead of voh for either the plural or the singular.  As far as I have heard, saying voh would be more standard.

Ve is not used in speech but in textbooks. I seem to remember something like "Yah pustak, Ve do pustakein".

[Daniel]

Well we are trying to make the distinction between what is spelled one way and pronounced another.  Certainly in writing it is standard practice in hindi to differentiate between वे and यह .  But In pronunciation both spellings are completely disregrded and pronounced as "woh."

[mala]

My Jaipuri Hindi teacher used to make me say Vahe or something when I always knew it as "vo." Confused the heck outta me. I've yet to hear "vahe" in real life. Shuddha teachers like that need to be dropped --- look at the confusion it causes !

[chandranc]

My Jaipuri Hindi teacher used to make me say Vahe or something when I always knew it as "vo." Confused the heck outta me. I've yet to hear "vahe" in real life. Shuddha teachers like that need to be dropped --- look at the confusion it causes !

If s/he claims he was a shuddha hindi teacher. Jaipuri hindi is NOT kadi boli hindi. It's a dialect.

[mala]

My Jaipuri Hindi teacher used to make me say Vahe or something when I always knew it as "vo." Confused the heck outta me. I've yet to hear "vahe" in real life. Shuddha teachers like that need to be dropped --- look at the confusion it causes !

If s/he claims he was a shuddha hindi teacher. Jaipuri hindi is NOT kadi boli hindi. It's a dialect.

You're right, but she taught shudhha Hindi although she is Jaipuri. And just to be contarian, aren't all the widely used versions of Hindi some kind of dialect these days? I'm interested in practical Bollywood Hindi-Urdu, not purist Hindi with Sanskrit embellishment or a Rajasthani twang. Its difficult to find a teacher to meet these needs.

[Daniel]

Actually, it really shouldnt be that hard.  There should be a plethora of hindi speakers in your area and not ones t hat teach you shuddh hindi.  There may be dialects, but most anyone that would be a hindi speaker in the US would likely know your basic vernacular standard hindi. 

[panjabigator]

my mother rolls her eyes at me everytime I say something shudh!

[chandranc]

To a sadda punjabi, shuddh sounds soooo... delhi nouveau rich....puppy..is that the term?

[panjabigator]

To a sadda punjabi, shuddh sounds soooo... delhi nouveau rich....puppy..is that the term?

eh?  puppy?
my mom just isnt a fan hehe

[chandranc]

To a sadda punjabi, shuddh sounds soooo... delhi nouveau rich....puppy..is that the term?

eh?  puppy?
my mom just isnt a fan hehe

It's like a yuppie except it refers to punjabi upwardly mobiles (usually those smokin' girls you see in delhi discoes) in delhi

[mala]

To a sadda punjabi, shuddh sounds soooo... delhi nouveau rich....puppy..is that the term?

eh?  puppy?
my mom just isnt a fan hehe

It's like a yuppie except it refers to punjabi upwardly mobiles (usually those smokin' girls you see in delhi discoes) in delhi

What's the alternate Hindi term then?

When you say shuddh sounds nouveau riche, is this attitude parallel to a native Indian speaking Hindi with a British twang? Kinda snobby?

You have raised an interesting point Chandra, I'm going to ask a Hindi prof.

[chandranc]

What's the alternate Hindi term then?

When you say shuddh sounds nouveau riche, is this attitude parallel to a native Indian speaking Hindi with a British twang? Kinda snobby?

You have raised an interesting point Chandra, I'm going to ask a Hindi prof.

I said Shuddh sounds nouveau rich to sadda punjabis Shuddh by itself does not sound nouveau rich. (the equivalent would be hearing the queen's Beeb english from Daljit daliwal (of the ITN) sounds like she acquired the accent in the last two generations..that does not meen BBC english pronounciation sounds tacked on..or nouveau.).

The background to this is that most punjabis that moved from pakistan(as refugees) did very well in delhi and , maybe because of the  bitter experiences they had across the border, cultivated the delhi method of speaking hindi, instead of speaking with the lahori punjabi/urdu accent (or whatever) .

[Gajanan]

Well we are trying to make the distinction between what is spelled one way and pronounced another.  Certainly in writing it is standard practice in hindi to differentiate between वे and यह .  But In pronunciation both spellings are completely disregrded and pronounced as "woh."

Well, thanks for that.  I went back over my lessons, and discovered that I had missed one small sentence, where the teacher did say that although the formal pronunciation is "ve", most Hindi speakers will say "vo".  Somehow I had missed that completely the first time through.