Learning Telugu - A total newbie !!

[mala]

As a starting point, how does Telugu differ from Tamil and Oriya ?

Feel free to ramble!

[wannabe]

Can't tell you about Oriya, but Tamil has certain sounds that don't exist in Telugu, for instance, the correct way to say the name of the language, which is nowadays often spelled Tamizh to approximate the sound.

Similarly, written Tamil does not always distinguish between the individual consonants of each consonant group of five (if you know the Sanskrit alphabet, you'll know what I'm talking about), so that native Tamil speakers can confuse the "k" and "g" sounds, for example, because they are both written the same way in Tamil.

I don't know how to help you about pronounciation over the net!    Probably the best advice I can give you is not to watch current Telugu films for pronounciation.  Try the films from the 1970's and earlier to get accurate pronounciation.

It also helps if you know Sanskrit. 

Just  out of nosiness, why are you learning Telugu?

[mala]

Thanks.

That "l" at the end of Tamil is really tough. . .

Is my impression correct that Telugu is heavily embellished with Sanskrit-derived words?   

My interest in Telugu has to do with my indecision about whether or not I like the language. Therefore I want to learn something concrete about it. Are you Telugu?

 

[Prem Rogue]

How much Hindi/Urdu/Persian influence is there on Telugu?  "Roju" sounds like it might be a modified version of "roz," for example.

[crazyone]

How much Hindi/Urdu/Persian influence is there on Telugu? "Roju" sounds like it might be a modified version of "roz," for example.

Probably a lot in the Hyderabad region.  In fact, Hyderabad has a notable Urdu/Muslim culture--I believe the strain of Urdu spoken there is known as 'Hyderabadi'.  But there are probalby other strains of Telugu which have very little Urdu/Hindi influence at all. 

[wannabe]

Sory not to have got back to this thread earlier.  To take the questions in turn:

Thanks.

Is my impression correct that Telugu is heavily embellished with Sanskrit-derived words?

My interest in Telugu has to do with my indecision about whether or not I like the language. Therefore I want to learn something concrete about it. Are you Telugu?

Telugu has been influenced by Sanskrit certainly, as all Indian languages have.  I wouldn't call it "heavily embellished" by Sanskrit, though, unless you are reading classical poetry, and there the heavy Sanskrit use is more due to the fashion of the day rather than any inadequacy of the Telugu language.  I only mentioned knowing Sanskrit to help in the pronounciation, as that was your original question.  Yes, I am Telugu, so I can offer to answer any reasonable questions you may have. 

I'm not sure what "concrete" things you want to learn about it.  Many non-Telugu speakers comment that it is a very beautiful sounding language, and the common description of it is that  it is "the Italian of the East".  What this means is that all words end in a vowel sound, as does Italian (e.g., Roma, not Rome), instead of a consonant.  However, nowadays, many younger people don't speak it correctly (because they have been educated in English), and even among others who don't know any other language, there is sometimes a conscious effort made to make it sound like other, more "worthy" languages like Hindi or English, by deliberately ending words with consonants, and dropping the vowel ending.  Let me give a concrete example, in case this all sounds like blather.    When words from other languages are adopted into Telugu, they are transformed by adding a vowel to the end.  Thus, the English words "road" and "bus" become "roddu" and "bassu".  Even the Hindi word "roz", as mentioned by Dragun, becomes transformed into "roju".  But when I refer to people dropping the vowel ending, I don't mean that they retain the original pronounciation of borrowed words, but that they transform Telugu words themselves.  For example, to ask "what is your name?", the correct Telugu would be "nee pEru EmiTi?"  But some people will say it as, "nee pEr EmTi?"  TV anchors are some of the worst culprits in this regard. 

How much Hindi/Urdu/Persian influence is there on Telugu? "Roju" sounds like it might be a modified version of "roz," for example.

Probably a lot in the Hyderabad region. In fact, Hyderabad has a notable Urdu/Muslim culture--I believe the strain of Urdu spoken there is known as 'Hyderabadi'. But there are probalby other strains of Telugu which have very little Urdu/Hindi influence at all.

There is a general influence of Hindi on Telugu, as there is with other Indian languages, but this is much less than from Sanskrit.  The exception is the area known as Telengana, which is roughly the area encompassed in the former Nizamate of Hyderabad.  This dialect is known as Telengana Telugu, rather than Hyderabadi.  (I'm more used to hearing the adjective "Hyderabadi" applied to the style of Urdu spoken there.)   The Telengana Telugu not only has a very high percentage of Urdu words in its vocabulary, but its grammar has also been transformed to be more like Urdu grammar.  One of the most telling examples of this is the way the verb endings are not gender specific, having the same verb form for both a male or a female subject.  Until I learned a little about Urdu grammar, I couldn't figure out how this happened.  When I first heard/read it, Telengana was almost totally incomprehensible to me, but by dint of sustained exposure, I no longer have that problem.  In a funny way, because of my exposure to Telengana, I could better understand the Urdu words in Hindi films when I started to watch them again. 

[crazyone]

Sory not to have got back to this thread earlier. To take the questions in turn:

Thanks.

Is my impression correct that Telugu is heavily embellished with Sanskrit-derived words?

My interest in Telugu has to do with my indecision about whether or not I like the language. Therefore I want to learn something concrete about it. Are you Telugu?

Telugu has been influenced by Sanskrit certainly, as all Indian languages have. I wouldn't call it "heavily embellished" by Sanskrit, though, unless you are reading classical poetry, and there the heavy Sanskrit use is more due to the fashion of the day rather than any inadequacy of the Telugu language. I only mentioned knowing Sanskrit to help in the pronounciation, as that was your original question. Yes, I am Telugu, so I can offer to answer any reasonable questions you may have.

I'm not sure what "concrete" things you want to learn about it. Many non-Telugu speakers comment that it is a very beautiful sounding language, and the common description of it is that it is "the Italian of the East". What this means is that all words end in a vowel sound, as does Italian (e.g., Roma, not Rome), instead of a consonant. However, nowadays, many younger people don't speak it correctly (because they have been educated in English), and even among others who don't know any other language, there is sometimes a conscious effort made to make it sound like other, more "worthy" languages like Hindi or English, by deliberately ending words with consonants, and dropping the vowel ending. Let me give a concrete example, in case this all sounds like blather. When words from other languages are adopted into Telugu, they are transformed by adding a vowel to the end. Thus, the English words "road" and "bus" become "roddu" and "bassu". Even the Hindi word "roz", as mentioned by Dragun, becomes transformed into "roju". But when I refer to people dropping the vowel ending, I don't mean that they retain the original pronounciation of borrowed words, but that they transform Telugu words themselves. For example, to ask "what is your name?", the correct Telugu would be "nee pEru EmiTi?" But some people will say it as, "nee pEr EmTi?" TV anchors are some of the worst culprits in this regard.

How much Hindi/Urdu/Persian influence is there on Telugu? "Roju" sounds like it might be a modified version of "roz," for example.

Probably a lot in the Hyderabad region. In fact, Hyderabad has a notable Urdu/Muslim culture--I believe the strain of Urdu spoken there is known as 'Hyderabadi'. But there are probalby other strains of Telugu which have very little Urdu/Hindi influence at all.

There is a general influence of Hindi on Telugu, as there is with other Indian languages, but this is much less than from Sanskrit. The exception is the area known as Telengana, which is roughly the area encompassed in the former Nizamate of Hyderabad. This dialect is known as Telengana Telugu, rather than Hyderabadi. (I'm more used to hearing the adjective "Hyderabadi" applied to the style of Urdu spoken there.) The Telengana Telugu not only has a very high percentage of Urdu words in its vocabulary, but its grammar has also been transformed to be more like Urdu grammar. One of the most telling examples of this is the way the verb endings are not gender specific, having the same verb form for both a male or a female subject. Until I learned a little about Urdu grammar, I couldn't figure out how this happened. When I first heard/read it, Telengana was almost totally incomprehensible to me, but by dint of sustained exposure, I no longer have that problem. In a funny way, because of my exposure to Telengana, I could better understand the Urdu words in Hindi films when I started to watch them again.

Urdu and Hindi have the same grammar from all that I know, and Hindi definitely has different verb forms for male and female subjects.  I don't know why Telengana Telugu would not have this, but I really doubt it came from "Urdu grammar". 

BTW, if you look at my post I did say that "Hyderabadi" referred to the strain of Urdu spoken there, not the form of Telugu spoken there. 

[wannabe]

Urdu and Hindi have the same grammar from all that I know, and Hindi definitely has different verb forms for male and female subjects.  I don't know why Telengana Telugu would not have this, but I really doubt it came from "Urdu grammar".

I think what I'm referring to is the fact that "vo" in Urdu/Hindi is used for both "he" and "she", correct?  Actually, now that I think about it, I think in one of the other learning Hindi threads, someone had said that you figure out whether it means "he" or "she" by the form of the verb ending, which is different for the masculine or feminine.  So looks like I made a big-time boo-boo here, by conflating that to mean that the verb endings are also the same.  Part of this confusion also comes from the fact that I have seen many Hindi/Urdu speakers on the net commonly confuse the third person pronouns, especially possessive ones,  when writing in English, such as "I think Amisha has one brother, but I don't know if he has any sisters." or "Amisha looks lovely.  His dress is very pretty."   I connected all this to the fact that the same word is used for both male and female.  Anyway, as is clear, I'm no expert on either Urdu or Hindi grammar.  In Telengana Telugu, the verb endings for both he and she are the same, unlike in other forms of Telugu, and the ending that is used is also completely different (that is, they don't, for example, use the masculine ending for both.)

BTW, if you look at my post I did say that "Hyderabadi" referred to the strain of Urdu spoken there, not the form of Telugu spoken there. 

Oops.  Sorry. 

[crazyone]

Urdu and Hindi have the same grammar from all that I know, and Hindi definitely has different verb forms for male and female subjects. I don't know why Telengana Telugu would not have this, but I really doubt it came from "Urdu grammar".

I think what I'm referring to is the fact that "vo" in Urdu/Hindi is used for both "he" and "she", correct? Actually, now that I think about it, I think in one of the other learning Hindi threads, someone had said that you figure out whether it means "he" or "she" by the form of the verb ending, which is different for the masculine or feminine. So looks like I made a big-time boo-boo here, by conflating that to mean that the verb endings are also the same. Part of this confusion also comes from the fact that I have seen many Hindi/Urdu speakers on the net commonly confuse the third person pronouns, especially possessive ones, when writing in English, such as "I think Amisha has one brother, but I don't know if he has any sisters." or "Amisha looks lovely. His dress is very pretty." I connected all this to the fact that the same word is used for both male and female. Anyway, as is clear, I'm no expert on either Urdu or Hindi grammar. In Telengana Telugu, the verb endings for both he and she are the same, unlike in other forms of Telugu, and the ending that is used is also completely different (that is, they don't, for example, use the masculine ending for both.)

You are correct that vo/yeh is the same for masculine and feminine, and that that this goes for the possessive, dative, object, etc forms of this as well.  But all verbs have a different form for feminine and masculine, except for the present form of hona, that is, hai.  "Voh Dilli mein hai" could mean He is in Delhi or she is in Delhi.  But otherwise you can use the verb to figure out the gender, as in "Voh Dilli mein rehta hai" (masculine--He lives in Delhi), or "Voh Dilli mein rehti hai" (she lives in Delhi). That is a very strange feature of Telengana Telugu that you are talking about. 

[wannabe]

You are correct that vo/yeh is the same for masculine and feminine, and that that this goes for the possessive, dative, object, etc forms of this as well. But all verbs have a different form for feminine and masculine, except for the present form of hona, that is, hai. "Voh Dilli mein hai" could mean He is in Delhi or she is in Delhi. But otherwise you can use the verb to figure out the gender, as in "Voh Dilli mein rehta hai" (masculine--He lives in Delhi), or "Voh Dilli mein rehti hai" (she lives in Delhi). That is a very strange feature of Telengana Telugu that you are talking about.

Well, I'm no expert at Telengana Telugu, either, since that is not the version I grew up with.  All I can do is understand it; I can neither speak it nor write in it.  This particular verb feature got stuck in my mind because it was used in a film song which caused a lot of political furore, and that made me curious to investigate this aspect further.

[crazyone]

Another question:  Hyderabad is in the Telegana region?  From what I understood, the Telegana breakaway movement is mainly an agrarian movement which feels that it isn't getting enough economic support from the urban minded government, which is obviously centered in Hyderabad.  I didn't realize that Hyderbad is in the Telegana region--I assumed it would be at the other end of the state. 

[Prem Rogue]

When words from other languages are adopted into Telugu, they are transformed by adding a vowel to the end.  Thus, the English words "road" and "bus" become "roddu" and "bassu".

Tamil is also like this.  Roddu, bassu, phone-u, etc.  It may also be the case in other South Indian languages.

[Brindavani]

When words from other languages are adopted into Telugu, they are transformed by adding a vowel to the end. Thus, the English words "road" and "bus" become "roddu" and "bassu".

Tamil is also like this. Roddu, bassu, phone-u, etc. It may also be the case in other South Indian languages.

Yup, in Kannada too!    Pen becomes "pennu".  Bus is "bassu"  in Kannada. 

[wannabe]

Another question:  Hyderabad is in the Telegana region?  From what I understood, the Telegana breakaway movement is mainly an agrarian movement which feels that it isn't getting enough economic support from the urban minded government, which is obviously centered in Hyderabad.  I didn't realize that Hyderbad is in the Telegana region--I assumed it would be at the other end of the state. 

I waited to answer this question, because the separate Telengana movement is a topic fraught with so many pitfalls and traps for the unwary and/or uninformed commentator, that I didn't want to make a fool of myself.  However, now I've decided to rush in where angels fear to tread! (not having had time to look up this subject more).   

The Telengana region is, as I said before, essentially the area of the former Nizamate.  Hence, Hyderabad is pretty much right smack in the middle of it.  The separation movement is not primarily an agrarian movement in the sense that they only focus on agrarian issues.  Some of them do relate to that (such as the diversion of rivers and lack of irrigation projects), but their overall complaint is that not enough is being done for them in terms of development.  Since Hyderabad has been the focus of (over?)development, especially under Chandrababu Naidu, one of the demands is that Hyderabad must be ceded to the new state of Telengana.  Of course, this doesn't fly very well with other parts of the state, who also feel that they've been neglected in favor of Hyderabad, so if Hyderabad goes, then nothing will be left for the remaining state of Andhra.  I myself don't think anything will come out of the separation movement, except further violence and suffering for the people, and enrichment for certain politicians.

There was once a link posted for a documentary about the separate Telengana movement, but I don't know if it still works.  I'll try to look that up for you, if you are interested.

When words from other languages are adopted into Telugu, they are transformed by adding a vowel to the end. Thus, the English words "road" and "bus" become "roddu" and "bassu".

Tamil is also like this. Roddu, bassu, phone-u, etc. It may also be the case in other South Indian languages.

Yup, in Kannada too! Pen becomes "pennu". Bus is "bassu" in Kannada.

Well, since they're all Dravidian languages, it's not surprising if the transformation of borrowed words is similar.  However, I don't think the other south Indian languages have this "vowel-sound ending" feature that Telugu has. Just think of some common words that do end in consonant sounds to see what I mean.  Offhand I can think of words like "avan" in Tamil, or "avial" in Malayalam, which you won't find in Telugu.  Perhaps someone can come up with other examples in Kannada and Malayalam.  (I mean, a true Telugu name would never be Ram or Raman, but Ramu)

 

[Fantam]

Well, since they're all Dravidian languages, it's not surprising if the transformation of borrowed words is similar.  However, I don't think the other south Indian languages have this "vowel-sound ending" feature that Telugu has. Just think of some common words that do end in consonant sounds to see what I mean.  Offhand I can think of words like "avan" in Tamil, or "avial" in Malayalam, which you won't find in Telugu.  Perhaps someone can come up with other examples in Kannada and Malayalam.  (I mean, a true Telugu name would never be Ram or Raman, but Ramu)

In Tamil one would say 'Ramayanam', 'Mahabharatham', 'Raagam', 'Taalam', 'Swaram', 'Nattiyam', 'Samaskritam' for the Samaskrita words 'Ramayana', 'Mahabharatha', 'Raaga', 'Taala', 'Swara', 'Nattiya', 'Samaskrita' , while in Hindi it would be clipped even further as 'Ramayan', 'Mahabharath', 'Raag', 'Taal', 'Swar', 'Samskrit'. How would these be said in Telugu? Would they typically end with a 'mu' or 'lu' as in 'Raagalu'?

[mala]

My boyfriend's last name ends in "gada". And he told me to address his parents as "R--" since that's their given name. Does this make sense to the Telugu people here?

[debur]

gada or guda just means village... as in somaji-guda. Rao is a prevelent last name for people in maharashtra, Andhra pradesh and karnataka. so your male friend 's name would actually, probably be <first name> rao <village> guda which would make perfect sense...if you knew the telegus...

[mala]

For example's sake, pragada would be the village of "pra" ?

PS - I don't know the Telugus, that's why I started this thread with the word 'newbie' in the title.  That's the inherent disclaimer I made so people aren't offended by my idiotic comments.

[debur]

pragada itself is the name of a village (I remember meeting someone called pragadapalle something...)

There's also an annapragada somebody I know....


but at that point my knowledge gives way, alas, because geneology is pretty specific to regions, and unless you've been, and researched it, you'd never know...

but then it's not uncommon that the last name is the name of the village...town the person's ancestors are from.

It's like the assertion of a title...or feudal allegiance...or family lineage...even though it may not mean much in the latest generation(ie I may not have much of an estate left(or I may still be the lord of my manor..) but my feudal allegience is to the village of <whatever>). This is not a caste affiliation (rao could be)

[wannabe]

We seem to have gotten away from the Telugu language and into Telugu culture. 

Just to clarify, it would be better if people didn't use "last name" when referring to south Indians. If you mean "surname" or "family name", in many cases, such a thing doesn't exist, and even it does, it is not at the end of the name.

Here is my understanding, which is open to correction for other parts of south India than Andhra.  Tamilians and some Kannadiga do not necessarily have a "family name".  They more often tended to use the father's name as their "family" name, which came at the beginning of their name.  Sometimes the village name is given at the beginning also, and sometimes the caste name is appended to the end.  So, for instance, the famous mathematician Ramanujan's full name is Srinivasa Ramanujan Iyengar, of which Srinivasa is his father's given name, Ramanujan is his own given name, and Iyengar is his caste name.

Nowadays, Tamilians and Kannadigas have taken to adding the father's/husband's name to the end of their given names, to conform with what they perceive to be the modern way (i.e., the way north Indians and Europeans write their names). 

For Telugus, the family name is written at the beginning of their name, and is usually abbreviated by an initial.  Even though you might know someone for years, you may not necessarily know what the initial of their family name actually stands for!  This is because, in general, family names are seldom used, and a person is usually known only by his/her given name.  The famous Telugu playback singer P. Susheela is known to millions, but very few of them could actually tell you what the "P." stands for (this sort of info is good for trivia games).  Nowadays, some Telugu women append their husband's given name to their own given name after marriage, so they can call themselves Mrs. so-and-so (though not Mrs. husband's actual family name).  The feminist in me gags at this practice, but to each her own, I guess.  The really "modern" Telugu people have started to write their family names at the end, again in conformity with the western practice*, but this makes no sense from the linguistic point of view, because the order of the name is determined by how one would say "this guy from such and such a village".  Because the sentence order of Telugu is reversed from that of English (or other European languages), the village name should come first (just as, because of the linguistic construction, it is logical to say "Charles of Gaul" i.e., Charles de Gaulle).  Hence you have, for instance, Nagarjuna Akkineni (though his father was known only as A. Nageswara Rao for a good part of his film career, and as ANR for the rest of it).

Which brings us to "Rao".  Rao is almost always part of the given name of a person among Telugus and Kannadigas, and I think also the Maharashtrians.  The actual family name is something else.  Rao, at least among the Telugus, is supposed to have started as an imitation of "Raju", meaning king, which was only used by actual kings, or, later, by people belonging to the kshatriya caste (warrior caste, from which most royals originated).  Then after a while, the title "rao" started to be used by Brahmins (who were usually the king's ministers) as an analog to "raju".  This was then adopted by other castes, who, perceiving themselves to be "lower", wanted to change their identity by adopting a "higher" caste name than their actual one. (In the example of A. Nageswara Rao above, for example, he is not a Brahmin).  This is already a bygone practice, as nowadays Telugu people want names that don't sound Telugu!  So, it would be less common to find someone with this ending to his name if the person is under, say, 50 years of age.  Above that age, it would be more or less ubiquitous!

Mala, I have no idea if you wanted hear all this, or indeed, if anyone does, so I'll stop now. 

----------------------------------

*Many Telugu people (and other south Indians) settled in western countries do change the order of their names, so that the family name appears at the end instead of the beginning, just to keep their lives simple in the sense of everyone in a family having the same "last"name, and so be readily identifiable as a family.  I have done this myself, but when I write name in a Telugu context, I always follow the Telugu practice of name order.

[mala]

Wow, wannabe! I commend that post. It answered a question I had but didn't know how to ask!

[ek_ladki]

wow wannabe... i enjoyed reading that ramble... i am telugu myself and i did not know much of this. but yes it is true how you dont usually know the famous peoples' surnames... and i also put my last name after my first name, since im an NRI and its just easier to do that than have people call me by my surname! i found it especially interesting how in Andhra, people dont address other people by their surname. i have never noticed this, possibly because im an NRI and whenever i go to india, its always 'Aunty', 'Uncle', 'Thathagaru' and 'Ammama'... even if they're not those relations lol!

and i know a tamil family here who, when i asked about their surname, said they didn't have a specific surname. in fact, the father of the family has the same first name and surname, and the wife and kids all have the same surname (or first name :p) as the father... if anyone actually understood that. lol. im guessings they've done that so that, like wannabe said, they can all be recognised as a family. so that the wife and kids can keep the husband's name, the husband has decided to use his own name as his surname rather than use his father's name (which, im presuming, the wife and kids cant use, according to what i've read on here about tamil names...).

if anyone understood that (im not good at saying what i think clearly as u can see lol), can anyone verify that for me?

[ek_ladki]

aur raatkanasha... how is your telugu learning going? if you need any help, just ask! though i must warn you now i am not an EXPERT in telugu.

[panjabigator]

so is hyderabad mainly telugu speaking or urdu speaking?  I know a lady who grew up in andra and only knew urdu!

[panjabigator]

side note...I believe hyderabadi urdu is called rekhtii...off topic i know!