Zee Cine Awards 2012

[Sanyogita]

James:
I see political correctness not as a social construct of Western countries, but a social construct of developed societies. The West was not always politically correct, I don't think it's inherent to any society, but more an indication of how a society is evolving. In that sense, I think it would be condesending of me to not expect the same politically correctness from the Indian celebrities that I do from the Briitsh or American ones.

I also do think that amongst the Indian elite the word fat does carry the same negative connotations that it does in any other part of the world. Bollywood might be deeply traditional in many ways, but they haven't failed to adopt Western standards of beauty, and as a result, being fat in Bollywood does carry the same implications that it does in Hollywood. I'm not denying that men are expected to be fit as well, but it is worse for women, because so much of their career is built on them being objectified and being part of raunchy songs and items, and playing the beautiful love interest, so it is far more imperative that they confirm to the standards of beauty that Bollywood holds up.
.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.  

[James]

We'll agree to disagree then, but just one clarification on my part regarding the following:

James:
I see political correctness not as a social construct of Western countries, but a social construct of developed societies. The West was not always politically correct, I don't think it's inherent to any society, but more an indication of how a society is evolving. In that sense, I think it would be condesending of me to not expect the same politically correctness from the Indian celebrities that I do from the Briitsh or American ones.

What I was wanting to say is that political correctness, what one is sensitive to, is relative to the problems of the society one lives in. Being given that being overweight in India is not the same sort of societal problem as it is in the West (and I recognise that we disagree on this point), it's natural that people wouldn't be politically correct or particularly sensitive about it. Matters of caste, communal rhetoric, religious conflict, all seem more pressing than weight in the Indian context, as issues that spring immediately to mind, and indeed, the stars seem to succeed in being sensitive to, and politically correct about, those issues in general. To my mind, expecting that weight would be a priority in India seems out of context, but agreed that we'll agree to disagree.

[los angeles]

Also, again, someone in an elite criticizing someone else in an elite for a particular body type just doesn't seem so serious an issue to me, personally. Rich, famous, widely considered to be beautiful and talented, but having some nasty detractors, is not a position one dreads to be in, and Vidya seems to have rather handily and beautifully triumphed just as she is. Where you see a story to deplore, I see a success story. Again, I guess we'll agree to disagree.  

I dunno James, I mean I see what you're saying about the cultural differences (I am my Punjabi mom's ek number ki moti alsi ladki haha)
But the thing I get all nervous about up in here with this kind of tomfoolery is the thought of it all giving young girls eating disorders, ya know?
They are so so impressionable, and when they see someone like Kajol or Vidya out there, and then they look in the mirror and see themselves having a very similar body type, I want them to feel like they're beautiful and gorgeous too (because they are.)
I don't want them to feel like they're a fat-suit clown type of cartoon, this leads down the self-sabotage road of diet pills, lipo, amphetamines, body dysmorphia and in the worst cases becoming full-blown ano for example...it can take years to recover from that
I was born and raised in the land of plastic fantastic, size zero obsession, bolt-on implants, you name it.
I just don't want those things to invade my precious Indian movie-scape, though maybe it's too late for that.
[And I do see the irony of commenting on this while I am madly dieting to lose weight, but with dance/choreography I am working in a field in the west where succeeding with a Vidya Balan body-type is not going to happen in 2012:(]

Anyway, lots of pointless pontificating, as per usual We'll see how this award show turns out.

[James]

But the thing I get all nervous about up in here with this kind of tomfoolery is the thought of it all giving young girls eating disorders, ya know?

If that were a big issue in India like it is in the West, I'd agree with you, LA. To my knowledge, it's simply not, and I do make an effort to keep informed about India.

They are so so impressionable, and when they see someone like Kajol or Vidya out there, and then they look in the mirror and see themselves having a very similar body type, I want them to feel like they're beautiful and gorgeous too (because they are.)
I don't want them to feel like they're a fat-suit clown type of cartoon, this leads down the self-sabotage road of diet pills, lipo, amphetamines, body dysmorphia and in the worst cases becoming full-blown ano for example...it can take years to recover from that

Agreed, of course. However, as pointed out up-thread, Vidya gained 15kg for this role, apparently, which is not her normal or natural body shape. I've read she wore some sort of prosthetic on top of that to look even bigger. Parodying that type of character in a country where being overweight, to my knowledge, is largely a sign of wealth and ease, and where I've never heard of any widespread problem with body image or eating disorders, and where it was not the actor's normal body type anyway, doesn't carry the same weight to me, if you'll pardon the pun, as it would in a society like ours where weight and related body image matters pose a serious problem.

[Poonam]

James:
I see political correctness not as a social construct of Western countries, but a social construct of developed societies. The West was not always politically correct, I don't think it's inherent to any society, but more an indication of how a society is evolving. In that sense, I think it would be condesending of me to not expect the same politically correctness from the Indian celebrities that I do from the Briitsh or American ones.

Indian celebrities can be politically correct in situations where it is demanded - for instance, if they were part of an award show in Hollywood. In the show under discussion, they are primarily playing to a domestic audience, much the same way as Indian films are made primarily for India but also happen to be growing popular internationally. They know 'fat' jokes aren't going to be misconstrued. Incidentally, it helps to remember many BW folks inclduing the cream of actors/directors/producers aren't exactly 'liberal elite' mentioned elsewhere in this thread. There's a veneer of sophistication but they come from all sorts of backgrounds too diverse to go into detail in this forum. We see pictures in the media and small clips of them wearing fine suits, dresses and giving appropriate sound bytes but there's a whole lot of layers to their backgrounds that never gets revealed.

I also do think that amongst the Indian elite the word fat does carry the same negative connotations that it does in any other part of the world.

Yes, but that elite happens to comprise a miniscule part of the population of 1 billion and counting. If they got up and started protesting, nobody's going to listen or care in a land where starvation deaths are still a reality.

 

Bollywood might be deeply traditional in many ways, but they haven't failed to adopt Western standards of beauty, and as a result, being fat in Bollywood does carry the same implications that it does in Hollywood. I'm not denying that men are expected to be fit as well, but it is worse for women, because so much of their career is built on them being objectified and being part of raunchy songs and items, and playing the beautiful love interest, so it is far more imperative that they confirm to the standards of beauty that Bollywood holds up.
.

This is a different issue. Notions of beauty in the industry now conform to international ones, but they do not necessarily impact society in huge swathes - people do copy fashions but not necessarily actors' diets.  If actresses have to get into skin-hugging clothes, they do need to have a figure that goes with such threads. But the wonderful thing  about Dirty Picture is that it has shown that being full-bodied is no less beautiful - secretly, I think a lot of Indian guys must be pleased! Ultimately, long after these spoofs have been telecast (and forgotten within a week), Vidya in her glowing kanjeevarams will be remembered for a truly pathbreaking role.

[Parallel_Worlds]

I dunno James, I mean I see what you're saying about the cultural differences (I am my Punjabi mom's ek number ki moti alsi ladki haha)
But the thing I get all nervous about up in here with this kind of tomfoolery is the thought of it all giving young girls eating disorders, ya know?
They are so so impressionable, and when they see someone like Kajol or Vidya out there, and then they look in the mirror and see themselves having a very similar body type, I want them to feel like they're beautiful and gorgeous too (because they are.)
I don't want them to feel like they're a fat-suit clown type of cartoon, this leads down the self-sabotage road of diet pills, lipo, amphetamines, body dysmorphia and in the worst cases becoming full-blown ano for example...it can take years to recover from that
I was born and raised in the land of plastic fantastic, size zero obsession, bolt-on implants, you name it.
I just don't want those things to invade my precious Indian movie-scape, though maybe it's too late for that.
[And I do see the irony of commenting on this while I am madly dieting to lose weight, but with dance/choreography I am working in a field in the west where succeeding with a Vidya Balan body-type is not going to happen in 2012:(]

Anyway, lots of pointless pontificating, as per usual We'll see how this award show turns out.

I can relate to LA's post. While I accept that fatness doesn't have the same social implications in India as it has in some western countries, I don't believe this applies to the whole of India.  
I've always been told  that there are isn't only one India (and it has been my own experience as well). I feel that the middle-class and upper middle class in big Indian cities are also battling with issues like impossible beauty standards, etc. Maybe the issue is not as wide spread or as big as in some other countries, but with economic progress these kind of 'luxury' problems always come along.
And as in every country, the entertainment industry sets the standards of beauty and has the power to change them as well.
To have a fair skin has always been such a standard, since a few years it's the size 0 standard. Why should we wait till the latter also becomes as big an issue as having a fair skin? I'd say nip it in the bud.

[Poonam]

So did anyone see this? I was all set to, but a wedding reception I had to attend kept me away.

[los angeles]

You know, this never ended up showing up on my Guide/Schedule  

Perhaps Zee TV (which is channel 787 in Los Angeles on Dish) has an overseas/NRI broadcast set for later or something.

Indian TV is all very unpredictable I have learned
Half the time I set my timer for one thing and then it tapes something else or they change things at the last minute. Or some prior movie/event runs over so they insert music videos or an old interview or some random cooking show at the time slot slated for another program entirely. It's kind of funny actually when I check my DVR, I'm like "And what is this here exactly...?"
My mom came over and hit play on some sort of Madhubala thing I'd put to tape while she was waiting for me the other day. "This says Madhubala special but it's a portly fellow making bhindi sabzee."
And so on LOL

[Sanyogita]

I just watched bits and pieces of this on youtube:

First of all- Subash Ghai called Zoya Akhtar his little girl while announcing that she had won the Best Director Award- I mean, what even?

There were some good dance performances: Shahid, Vidya and my surprise favourite of the evening- Ranbir!

I really liked Farhan Akhtar and his fabulously chic co-host for the evening

Spoiler (hover to show)

Bagwati!  

. Although having a blonde woman accompany her and be the butt of her introductory joke was a typically crass Bollywood cheap shot.  

I thought that Parineeti Chopra's innocent glee at receiving her first award was really touching, as was the obvious friendship between Dia Mirza and Zoya Akhtar. Kalki and Imitiaz were unexpectedly cute presenting together and Adhuna Akhtar seems like she would be so much fun to hang out with: she even did this typical filmi whistling thing when Farhan won!  

On the cringe worthy side there was Ekta trying really hard to be sexy and the annoying editing that kept cutting to Gauri every time PC got cute with SRK (which happened a lot). Zoya's boyfriend/ cinematographer was there looking very unkept as was Dia Mirza's boyfriend who seems to be sporting a unibrow- its kind of annoying how ill-groomed BW men are vs. how super made-up the women are. Someone needs to tell Imitiaz that he's not make any cool statements by showing up to every single award ceremony in super casual blue jeans.  

I don't think I'll have the patience to sit through the whole thing- but its worth skimming through on Youtube. And I loved how Vidya was owning the award ceremony. They even had 3 TV actresses come up and express their admiration for her in a tribute! 
 

[BollyMalika]

I watched it sunday and I didn't really like it that much. I hated the performances, except for Ranbir. Damn! That's what I call a performance  .
The nominees and winners weren't very interesting for me. I wanted to kill the judges for giving the best actor award to SRK . The nominees for best movie were too cheesy. Every movie with a Khan or another big star was nominated. 
I don't understand the 'fat' joke. What were they singing instead of the original lyrics of "Ooh La La"? And why did Sheila and Munni turn into 'fat' women as well and started dancing with PC? 
I don't know if this was the editing or the real reaction of Priyanka, but when Ekta announced that Vidya won the award for best actor (female), Priyanka had this very bitchy envious look on her face  .
Stupid awards like: 'Best use of media' and 'international icon' 

Good things: Priyanka is a pretty fun host. At times she was a bit annoying, but that has more to do with the script than her. I loved her interaction with Parineeti when she won the award for best debut. I'm always wondering how these Bollywood family-members interact with each other  .
Shahid and Ranbir dancing together 
Like Sanyogita said: Farhan and

Spoiler (hover to show)

bagwati 

Vidya's speech when she won the awards  . She has this honest and cute sound in her voice. I could really feel her emotions and I'm so happy she won! She deserves it the most.

[Dancelover]

maybe that children grow up and become Best Directors?
In my part of the world, that kind of statement indicates "pride."

Dancelover

I just watched bits and pieces of this on youtube:

First of all- Subash Ghai called Zoya Akhtar his little girl while announcing that she had won the Best Director Award- I mean, what even?

[snip - dl]

[Sanyogita]

maybe that children grow up and become Best Directors?
In my part of the world, that kind of statement indicates "pride."

Dancelover

Yes, you're probably right.    I don't know how to explain it, he was like 'my young little girl- Zoya Akhtar,' which I thought was quite weird because she is not even that young, she is 39!

[MrB]

Yes, you're probably right.    I don't know how to explain it, he was like 'my young little girl- Zoya Akhtar,' which I thought was quite weird because she is not even that young, she is 39!

But she's young compared to him. Anyone who was a child when you were an adult remains young all your life.

[Parallel_Worlds]

I watched only half of the show and then fast forwarded through the diferent pieces. I like the way they presented the best film nominees. It's probably inspired by the Oscars, but given a more humorous and Bollywood touch.

I changed my mind on the offensiveness of the fat suit. It felt very good humored. Let's hope it also means the industry will end it's latest obsession with size 0.
It was very sweet the way Priyanka's dad enjoyed the show. He has a very likeable face.

These shows tend to be a little repetitive, you have the shahid dance, the vidya dance, then the katrina number. Pretty much the same during the Screen awards.
I think they should limit these kind shows to one or two. A fun one celebrating commercial successes and a more serious one celebrating the acting/filmmaking trade.

Oh yeah, whenever someone from RA.ONE won Gauri looked so relieved and happy. I always thought she was only a token producer, it's not like she actively involved in any of the film-making processes.

A little weird: the best supporting actress didn't get time to say her thank you's while Parineeti Chopra got her time as best debut. Is it due to editing? The show deciding who is worth air time and who is not. Quite sad that by being Priyanka's cousin Parineeti got her air time and that Swara Bhaskar didn't.

[tabula rasa]

I've kept away from this thread since I wanted to watch the show first.

Where the show itself is concerned, since the parodies are conducted while in character, it's difficult to point out any degrees of intentionality within the humour, any kind of perceived deliberateness. I noticed a lot of it was in Hindi, which for one thing I think changes the context of the humour (As James says, it speaks to a slightly different audience) but I must also confess I understood about 10-20% less than I usually do because of that, so if someone could be kind enough to translate that portion in this thread, I'd be very grateful.

However, having said that - while I agree with James' premise that it's a bit rich for those in the Western context to get all flustered over the PC-ness of a joke that goes on in a different cultural context and possesses different cultural connotations, I will also point out that as a rising, developing nation being exposed to a lot of media trends that are being imported from the West (the stick thin female figures being one example), there is a growing number of affluent, socially mobile Indians who ARE being influenced negatively in terms of body image, especially since the obsession with films in India is far more pervasive, and is sustained across classes and different income-levels. Of course, there are the starving hordes living in an environment where the more well off are appallingly apathetic, but there in line with the rising affluence there are also diet clinics, and rising levels of eating disorders:

http://www.eatingdisordertreatment.com/blog/eating-disorders-in-india.-do-they-exist

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Eating+disorder+needs+to+be+addressed/1/5144.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2978216.stm

So we can't turn a blind eye to the fact that as the Indian economy grows and Indians become more globalised, they aren't susceptible to the same effects of the media as the rest of the world is. The negative impact of globalisation doesn't get excluded in the South Asian context.

In that sense, I do welcome how Vidya's been accepted, and that too in a movie that is so much about the effect of a woman's body in the visual medium. As LA says, there will be girls out there who will look at that and perhaps breathe a little sigh of relief, and perhaps its a great thing that Vidya in all her related interviews talks unapologetically about her looks. In THAT particular context, I would say maybe these jokes act as a bit of a juvenile response, and I wonder about the contemporary urban Indian teenage girl watching it who'd been glad Vidya wasn't perfect and may be now wondering if all her thoughts had been invalid all this time since the great SRK is making fun of it.

BUT - I think it's a drop in the ocean, and I think the jokes weren't as deeply insulting as it was immediately and mistakenly assumed on this board, and I don't think PC was being bitchy in that interview ( I really couldn't see that however hard I try), and really, there is more serious degradation of women happening in the world, and in the South Asian context, that should merit this kind of righteous outrage, than a freakin awards show.

 

[los angeles]

Laura sent me the link for this a few days back (I don't know when the heck this program is going to show up on my Hindi channels haha)

Anyway, for others who might want to see it and judge for themselves, here is the clip she sent me with the portion of the show where Priyanka is in that pink costume fatsuit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCW_Cw1Vztc&feature=related

[Poonam]

there is a growing number of affluent, socially mobile Indians who ARE being influenced negatively in terms of body image, especially since the obsession with films in India is far more pervasive, and is sustained across classes and different income-levels. Of course, there are the starving hordes living in an environment where the more well off are appallingly apathetic, but there in line with the rising affluence there are also diet clinics, and rising levels of eating disorders:

http://www.eatingdisordertreatment.com/blog/eating-disorders-in-india.-do-they-exist

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/Eating+disorder+needs+to+be+addressed/1/5144.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2978216.stm

So we can't turn a blind eye to the fact that as the Indian economy grows and Indians become more globalised, they aren't susceptible to the same effects of the media as the rest of the world is. The negative impact of globalisation doesn't get excluded in the South Asian context.

Not found the time yet to read those links, but the truth of your statement came home to me at a fairlly high profile wedding I attended some days back , about which I had even posted a bit on the Riteish-Genelia shaadi thread. I couldn't help being struck by the remarkable number of young women with incredibly slender frames (with their straightened out long hairstyles, the effect was even more pronounced  ). All very lovely and dressed in fabulous wedding wear with cholis cut to show the maximum skin..but the thinness was unnerving.

In that sense, I do welcome how Vidya's been accepted, and that too in a movie that is so much about the effect of a woman's body in the visual medium. As LA says, there will be girls out there who will look at that and perhaps breathe a little sigh of relief, and perhaps its a great thing that Vidya in all her related interviews talks unapologetically about her looks. In THAT particular context, I would say maybe these jokes act as a bit of a juvenile response, and I wonder about the contemporary urban Indian teenage girl watching it who'd been glad Vidya wasn't perfect and may be now wondering if all her thoughts had been invalid all this time since the great SRK is making fun of it.

BUT - I think it's a drop in the ocean, and I think the jokes weren't as deeply insulting as it was immediately and mistakenly assumed on this board, and I don't think PC was being bitchy in that interview ( I really couldn't see that however hard I try), and really, there is more serious degradation of women happening in the world, and in the South Asian context, that should merit this kind of righteous outrage, than a freakin awards show.

 

I am now having second thoughts about how much Vidya's act will really touch the age group who are the most vulnerable to changing trends in body shape. Her appeal is very adult. That's also why I cannot believe the corny SRK-PC act is going to even remotely affect anyone on this issue (you exaggerate his influence!!) OTOH, if BW women like Kareena, Deepika, Sonam and Anushka Sharma start looking less like they have been poured into their clothes, that could certainly have a more lasting impact on young minds. Also, it's not just the stars, isn't it, what about the dress designers, and everyone else involved in making decisions ?

[los angeles]

I am now having second thoughts about how much Vidya's act will really touch the age group who are the most vulnerable to changing trends in body shape. Her appeal is very adult.

I know what you mean, the girls who really need the positive reinforcement and high self-esteem type of messages are the high-school age ones.
I don't know that they are watching Vidya B movies as much as people in my age group (thirties) or older.
I would think the Deepika and Anushka sort of actresses are more going to be who the high schoolers watch and imitate for style, look, clothings, etc
(I like both Deepika and Nushka by the way, just would be nice to have other physical types represented for the younger set too, is what I mean.)