Dhobi Ghat *****Reviews and Spoilers*****

[Kajolownsyou]

^ Wow, I am seriously naive then! Hahaha cuz that went way over my head if that was really the case. 

[Darshana]

Hope everybody who saw movie will weigh in on my Qs - I personally did not think a gigolo-ish arrangement was what was happening, but one of my friends believed it was, and assumed that that was why Munna had some extra money to lend his friend.  I just thought he was unmarried and so saved his money.

[lydia]

Hope everybody who saw movie will weigh in on my Qs - I personally did not think a gigolo-ish arrangement was what was happening, but one of my friends believed it was, and assumed that that was why Munna had some extra money to lend his friend.  I just thought he was unmarried and so saved his money.

He was having paid sex with the woman. Why else would the filmmakers have emphasized the reaction of such an uniimportant character. In a sparse and economical film every bit counts. The woman was on the bed and going on and on about sacking Munna. Too emotive and underscored to be anything but paid sexual favours.

[tabula rasa]

I totally saw that as the two of them having sex and Munna getting paid for it as well. It brought back to mind an old anecdote from a friend, of rich housewives hanging around outside cinema theatres in their cars (with drivers) after a late show, and rows of young men standing by the wall, and the wife picking one to take home with her for the night. A very real phenomenon in Mumbai.

As for the caste issue - Darshana, as far as history goes, the notion is that Indian Christians and Indian Muslims would've primarily come from the lower castes, since it was the caste hierarchy factor that was used to spread these two religions in the first place, and that successfully obtained converts. No blame there - to someone born into oppression which is justified just by virtue of their birth in their religion, the prospect of being a part of a universal, equal brotherhood, where everything and everyone is the same in the eyes of the One God, would've been extremely appealing.

Having said that, in terms of this film itself, I don't think there was a single speck of intention to speak or think of caste. The Indian class system is something that is now as rigid as the caste system was. It is a very obvious social distinction, with many dos and don'ts implicitly known in dealings, expected even. There are servants in rich houses who wouldn't respect their employers if they didn't employ a measure of severity on them. It's a bit hard to understand by those living in ostensibly egalitarian societies like America and Australia.

This I believe is one of the reasons why in a lot of mainstream Indian movies (esply in the 70s and 80s) a lot of love stories are about girls and boys of different social classes, who get together, then have the parents opposing their union (very logically!) because there is no way they'd be able to live in society with an inter-class marriage, and besides it just wouldn't be a happy marriage because it wouldn't be a marriage of equals in any sense. And to further underscore the fantasy element, and the pandering to the normative male audience, it's usually the male who's in the lower class, and the female who's in the higher class. Plenty of Tamil films still employ that fantastical conceit. And somehow, in these films, the couple overcome all odds, due to the strength of their 'true love' (usually illustrated via numerous colourful ditties and poetic dialogue). It's an element of fantasy in the Indian movies because it could never happen in real life. I remember a poll that came out the year Raja Hindustani was big, saying that while the public loved watching the film, they scored very low in terms of whether such a scenario would happen in real life, that of a taxi driver/tourist guide marrying his employer's daughter.

So in those terms, I guess Dhobi Ghat gently explores that rigidity between the classes, and the notion that although love might blossom in those scenarios (because they're human, and that's what draws Munna to Shai in the first place, the fact that as someone above his station, she chose to see him and regard him as a person, rather than just a manifestation of his laundry class) but that the divisions between them are greater than the commonalities.

Yeah, I'm really not sure how well this will do in India now.

[Darshana]

Thanks for all answers.  TR you're saying what I thought re: class, and not caste, being the factor here.  The movie I think nicely presents a nuanced set of relationships - there is really "something" between Munna and Shai, which is not likely to develop into a shaadi at the end, but which also does not have to die tragically -- she loves him enough to interrupt her reconciliation with Arun to run after him (also a nice thing, a woman running like a hero after a male) and make things right, and he loves her in a way that eventually expresses itself in his helping her to be able to re-connect with Arun.

As to the sex thing, a great eye-opener for me.  You know, someone (who lived there) told me, maybe 30 years ago, that married upper-class Bombay women would go out and seek lovers -- "naked under their coats," in my friend's agreeably filimi version -- but I'd assumed I guess that they took up with members of the class they more or less came from.  But it makes total sex sense that they'd go for the beautiful lower-income boys of Bombay, a win-win, more or less, for everyone.

It makes sociological sense, too, to pair off in this way with guys who are not in your social circles, it's tidier!! 

[melbguy]

You missed Yazmin's arrival in Mumbai. She is in a taxi chatting to the driver who is also from UP - no actual shots of her just voice. (She sounds quite upbeat - excited by the city) There were some atmospheric shots of Mumbai - building site construction workers atop of sky scrapers, Aamir moving into his new flat, at least one shot of the silent old woman sitting in her room  and probably the Dhobi Ghat.
Arun arrives late for his opening and has to be coaxed into making a speech. Shai is immediately attracted to him.
I don't speak Hindi so I may have missed a lot.

thanks.

And another question:  do you remember where Munna says he is from?  

he said he is from bihar.  


One thing i am not sure about is, when shai asks him what is his name, Munna says  it is zohaib. I know munna is not his real name, but was zohaib just a name he made up or his real first name? as when shai refers to him as zohaib at the cinema, his friend makes fun of him and the name.

And i think munna did sleep with that old lady. Actually in metro cities i have heard few stories of dhobi guys sleeping with old women when they go back to give clothes. So i think that would have been the reason why kiran rao would have made it as part of the story.

[Kajolownsyou]

I had never until now heard about this common older housewife using young poorer class men for sex. This is why I love BWF. I learn something new everyday!

I also really appreciate Kiran's efforts into showing the 'real' Bombay. Real doesn't have to mean slums. In this film we saw everything from a high society art gallery show to rat killings at midnight. She really covered so much.

[carla]

I thought the relationship with the wealthy customer was about sex, and she almost certainly paid him for it. 

I also agree that the movie was about class rather than caste per se.  By the way, as I understand the caste system (to the extent that a fragmented jumble of local traditions can be called "THE caste system") Muslims often are not outside of it.  Many caste divisions go back to times before certain groups converted to Islam and these groups RETAIN their caste status (low or high) after conversion.  This is not a universal truth, as I stated, because caste traditions vary widely from place to place, but I have read about it happening in some places. 

(For example, just the other night I went to a concert by musicians from Rajasthan who are from a musician caste that used to be in the patronage of the Rajputs.  Their entire caste converted to Islam in the 17th or 18th century but their status as the musician caste to the Rajputs did not change at that time.)

Anyway, back to Dhobi Ghat.   I thought it was quite a good movie, and actually my estimation of it got better as I thought about it through the evening after I saw it - though I identified a few weaknesses in it, I really didn't want to think about them.  It was impressionistic, a meditation.   I just wanted to focus on the moods and themes of it rather than details of its construction, if that made sense. 

If you can forgive me, since I wrote about this last night on Filmi Geek, I will just excerpt those comments here:

**

One of the themes of Dhobi ghat is that the city exists in multiple layers, both physical (shore, gutter, house, high-rise) and class (rat-killer/dhobi, servant, wealthy educated classes).  The movie happens in the spaces where these strata meet and slide against each other.  Only the American-born character, Shai, willfully and self-consciously disregards this stratification, nudging herself into Munna's spaces.  Apart from Shai, the only customer who invites Munna into her home is a dour woman who, it is implied, wants him for sex, and dismisses him as a dhobi when she realizes he will no longer provide that.  For upper-class Mumbai-walas, Munna is a service provider, not a person.  Shai uses him as well, in her own way, but she also genuinely cares for him, especially by the film's end.  Yet their friendship, like nearly everything else in the film's Mumbai, is transient.

Indeed, the loveliest moments in Dhobi ghat are its many symbols of the transitory nature of city life - characters move house and leave scant artifacts behind; names are scratched in sand and washed away by the waves; construction sites stand for the relentless pace of change.  Even the videos, paintings, and photographs that drive the film's stories can only imperfectly capture moments; the records may remain, but like Arun's elderly neighbor they are mute and leave questions unanswered.

The weak link in the script is Arun; the brooding, temperamental, loner artist is a cliche and just a flatter character than the others.  His obsession with Yasmin's letters is meant to add depth, but it doesn't tell us much about Arun, it's not personal enough to him - who would not be bewitched by such a vibrant young woman, by the mystery of her unsent letters and her unknown fate?  Arun only takes on dimension at the very end of the film, as he deduces the logical conclusion of Yasmin's story and wordlessly struggles with the possibility that the art she inspired him to make is an exploitation of her suffering.

The performances in Dhobi ghat range from adequate (Aamir Khan, Monica Dogra) to exquisite (Prateik Babbar and Kriti Malhotra); the latter do as much with their faces as their dialogue and are as engaging and believable as the script allows.  Kriti Malhotra renders especially well the slow choking of Yasmin's spirit, as her bright, vivacious smile early in the film fades to a haggard exhaustion by its end.  At any rate, criticizing minor weaknesses in characterization or performance feels like nitpicking a film that is as much impressionist painting as tightly-woven text.  On balance, Dhobi ghat is delicate, touching, visually rich, a pastiche of engaging stories very well told.

[sunrise]

Does anyone know who took the photos in this film? The ones that Shai takes, that is. One looks eerily like this one here, but I cannot remember for the life of me: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lecercle/441754692/

:-/

[corbie]

Carla's review was right on. It was very different than I expected. I was expecting bored people with money and poor desperate. It wasn't. Well there was the woman who fired his as the dhobi.

I also agree Aamir was a weak link. And true to what I have come to expect 99% of the time whenever I have watched one with him, he was a cad. But I wish they had explained a bit more about the girl in the letters. It was an engrossing  story. I assume she did off herself. His obsession was a good plot.

I had never until now heard about this common older housewife using young poorer class men for sex. This is why I love BWF. I learn something new everyday!

I also really appreciate Kiran's efforts into showing the 'real' Bombay. Real doesn't have to mean slums. In this film we saw everything from a high society art gallery show to rat killings at midnight. She really covered so much.

All in all it was a very good film and I will want to see it again.

[pahar ka gulab]

I think it's very relevant which relationships include sex in Dhobi Ghat and which don't. Shai would have sex with Arun, even at a first meeting, because they are in a way equal to each other. They come from a seemingly similar background of education and pretty international (if not to say western) moral standards. But I don't think Shai even considers Munna as a potential romantic partner. I think she first doesn't really see him as a man. She is, typically western, very uncomfortable with the class distinctions the Indian society puts up, and steps over them. But I still think she only registers Munna as a very attractive man when she takes his pictures (and I felt she was quite surprised by this). But even then, I don't think she is more interested in him than friendship. She likes him, cares for him, but she doesn't really think of him as a potential romantic partner. Because their worlds are in the end too far apart from each other to really see what that other person really is like.

So if Shai would have had sex with Munna that would have been a kind of exploitation. She was never ready to get into a relationship with him, so the sex would have been among non equals and it would have been just for the lust kick on her side. And I am very grateful that Kiran spared us the cliche of the westernised NRI only out for sex. She hinted at the exploitation that a boy like Munna could be subjected to by the episode with the woman in the apartment. And I think it's very gratifying that both Munna and Shai don't go that way, because they respect each other too much to degrade their relationship to that level.

[Darshana]

Corbie - Jasmin hanged herself from the ceiling fixture, that is what Arun realizes.  If you see movie again you can note how the camera helps you realize this.

Later at first I thought maybe the old catatonic lady had seen this -- someone - Jasmin? - wonders what she has seen to make her like this - but then my friends remembered that since Jasmin describes the lady that way, she was already that way before the suicide of Jasmin.

Carla I like your layers imagery, among other things in your review.

Arun's character - I guess I can agree with the many comments, here and elsewhere, that find his character kind of a cliche, though I was not perturbed by that myself.  I was truly interested in his interest in Jasmin, especially as we learned that he had had a wife and child who left him only two years before, and that he had been profoundly depressed for a long time afterward.

I thought it was wonderful and fascinating how he identified with Jasmin - first the interest in figuring out where she had been sitting when she was filmed, then the patient cleaning and wearing of her ornaments -- as the story developed, Jasmin is not just a previous tenant who is of interest simply as another human being -- which is interesting enough! -- but she is also someone else who fell into despair, as did Arun.  The whole story may be too subtly told, I think -- maybe because of so much care taken not to have Aamir fill up the movie.

[Darshana]

BAradwaj Rangan:

http://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2011/01/22/review-dhobi-ghat-983652426748/#comments

[Darshana]

If you liked the movie and want to do a good deed, go to the NY Times site and post a short thoughtful review.  I really believe people all over the country/world read those, especially in a case like this where so far there are very few readers' reviews.  I haven't done so, though I did post something on the NPR site and hope to get to this one too.

[sunrise]

Corbie - Jasmin hanged herself from the ceiling fixture, that is what Arun realizes.  If you see movie again you can note how the camera helps you realize this.

Later at first I thought maybe the old catatonic lady had seen this -- someone - Jasmin? - wonders what she has seen to make her like this - but then my friends remembered that since Jasmin describes the lady that way, she was already that way before the suicide of Jasmin.

How do you mean the camera?

Also, the old lady, I guess there are layers and layers of metaphors with which you can interpret her presence in the film. Realistically (that is not to say the other layers of understand are not valid), I think she may have been deaf (at the beginning of the movie when she doesn't respond to Yasmin's voice)... then I thought it must be mental deterioration/dementia of some sort. Of course, it could just be sheer shock of having seen something horrible and never fully recovering from it, and that is just as realistic I guess (heck, ANYTHING is realistic in Mumbai, yes?). But personally - and maybe I am just coming at this from a medical student view - I thought it was a health issue causing her to be so catatonic. In fact, catatonic schizophrenia comes to mind. It could be seen as a commentary on care and mental health status of the elderly, which was what I saw it as (especially in India, where your elders are cared for within the family) - where is her family? Who looks after her? Who dresses her?

She may even simply be fully deaf/mute/blind.

I would love to hear Kiran Rao's justification of her character, just to see where the film maker comes from, although it is very much wide open to interpretation and I LOVE that.

I also love the way Aamir sits in front of her door and cries, in the silent presence and witness of her. Perhaps because she has also seen Yasmin, he feels comforted by being around some form of connection to her. I loved that. Or maybe he was just very scared and lonely, and needed a silent old lady to just be there, to reduce the loneliness. Oh the emotions in that scene! Brilliant!

[dustdevil]

Wow, what a great movie. I've been thinking about it non-stop since I finished watching it 5+ hours ago.To me, it was more of a poem than a straight narrative. I need some more time to formulate a coherent response to it, but some scattered impressions:

-I love how there are all of these shifting axes of the different characters (age, marital status, class, profession, gender, location), and the overall theme of the characters "watching" each other and the world around them.

-the score was fantastic, I loved that it didn't feel "Bollywood-ish", but I think Gustavo Santaolalla also made it feel organic to Mumbai.

-I doubt this was intentional, but the scene when Aamir/Arun is sitting in the big cement blocks on the shoreline reminded me of a scene in Rangeela at that same spot, and it got me thinking about connections between the two films ("Munna", scenes at the cinema, film aspirations).

-That last scene, when Munna runs after Shai's car, was a great shot, because it felt like real traffic. They either shot that in actual traffic, in which case that was an amazing piece of filming, or staged in, in which case they did a great job of creating realistic chaos.

I'm sorry that it doesn't seem to have been picked up for regular distribution in the US. I think arthouse audiences would really enjoy and appreciate it.

[Darshana]

-That last scene, when Munna runs after Shai's car, was a great shot, because it felt like real traffic. They either shot that in actual traffic, in which case that was an amazing piece of filming, or staged in, in which case they did a great job of creating realistic chaos.

I'm sorry that it doesn't seem to have been picked up for regular distribution in the US. I think arthouse audiences would really enjoy and appreciate it.

I read an interview in which Prateik says they just filmed it in regular traffic!!!  I also wondered how they'd done it.

How do you mean the camera?

If you see it again - you see, via the filming,  where Arun's gaze goes - it goes to the ceiling decoration - the plaster recorative boss in the center of the ceiing, in which a hook has been mounted (for suspending a light fixture, though there is not one there now), and there is a twist of old cable or something on the hook.  It creates the image in your mind of her hanging herself.



I also love the way Aamir sits in front of her door and cries, in the silent presence and witness of her. Perhaps because she has also seen Yasmin, he feels comforted by being around some form of connection to her. I loved that. Or maybe he was just very scared and lonely, and needed a silent old lady to just be there, to reduce the loneliness. Oh the emotions in that scene! Brilliant!

Very nice!!

She looks like someone with catatonia or dementia, but in the movie Jasmin wonders what she has seen, so I was considering the idea that she saw something which made her this way to be part of how the director is guiding us to think.  Though -- it could just as well be that that is how Jasmin thinks, but not correct.  Except that if we are meant to perceive a contradiction -- she interprets it this way, but this is not true -- I think not enough is done to make us aware of it.

[irena sima]

Can someone help me understand please, why did Munna ran away so fast when  Shai  recognized him killing rats?
Was killing rats is  another job he has and he was ashamed  when she saw him? Thanks!

[dustdevil]

I had that same reaction--I didn't quite understand why he would perceive of that job as more shameful than the other things she photographed him doing.  But I imagine that it might have a greater stigma?

[Darshana]

That is what I thought, that it was a shameful job and he did not want this girl he had a crush on to see him doing it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/movies/beyond-bollywood-to-hindie/article1877147/

Here is a nice interview about the movie - and it's by our own forum member, Bombay Gora.  He asks a lot of new questions - including about that traffic scene.

[dustdevil]

Here's the link to the interview that mentions the trafffic scene: http://www.digitalspy.com/bollywood/interviews/a299589/aamir-khan-prateik-babbar-dhobi-ghat.html.

The Globe and Mail piece(http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/arts/movies/beyond-bollywood-to-hindie/article1877147/), ended with a quote from Aamir that I really liked:

“Mainstream Indian cinema is one of the few things in our country that shoulders its core responsibility – it entertains one billion people. It doesn’t really bother me that a person from a different culture does not connect with these films. They are not meant to,” he said.

“[But] within Indian cinema, through the ages, we have filmmakers who have a different perspective. That has its own audience as well. Every film comes with its potential and destiny. I don’t think you can stop a good film. If it’s a good story, it will travel.”

I like that he's willing to state the role of cinema as a "responsibility to entertain."

Also, it struck me in the art show scene that Arun called it "Bombay", since there was so much drama over the use of that word in Wake Up Sid. Was it the same in the mostly Hindi version?

[lydia]

Also, I struck me in the art show scene that Arun called it "Bombay", since there was so much drama over the use of that word in Wake Up Sid. Was it the same in the mostly Hindi version?

Yes it was Bombay. Interestingly Ayan Mukherrjee and Karan were thanked in the opening credits.

[melbguy]

i didnt see any caste based discrimination in the movie but definitely class. when agnes brings tea, she puts the tea for munna in a glass rather then a mug. I have seen that when i use to live in india, people giving different cups or glasses for water or tea when someone who is from a lower socio economic background would visit home. and those mugs/glasses are only used for them and never used by anyone at home.

Even the way shai treats munna would be because she is a nri and havent lived in india. Otherwise dhobis and other workers are showed hardly any respect. Shouting and ordering is quite common.

[Poonam]

I had never until now heard about this common older housewife using young poorer class men for sex. This is why I love BWF. I learn something new everyday!

I have read about how rich and bored older women in Mumbai trawl the streets in black-windowed, chauffeur-driven cars at night, looking to pick up street kids for fun and games.  I think that may have been featured in Page Three, Madhur Bhandarkar's film (not very sure, memory fails me)

[newbiefan]

Was anyone else dissatisfied with the Yasmin track, especially its conclusion? Why did she have to kill herself? She seemed to come from a loving family, she was obviously close to her brother, and happy before marriage, as she mentions herself, so why did her husband's infidelity drive her to suicide? She could have gone home to her family. I'm sure they wouldn't have compelled her to spend the rest of her life waiting for her cheating husband to come back to her. Or even if they wouldn't take her back, it had to find mention in the movie somehow. Her story went from happy to hopeless too quickly, without adequate explanation, IMO. Also, why was she addressing these "letters" to her brother if she was not going to mail them to him? I can understand her doing so in happier times, when she is indeed expecting to send him the tapes, but later, especially during her last entry, when she has evidently made up her mind to kill herself, and has no plans of sending the tapes home, why is she still keeping this "letter to my brother" format?