Reading Club?

[Dil Bert]

I wonder if there's any way we could help each other with the vocab...  Any ideas?

Google docs spreadsheet?  Or do you each have some version of Anki?

[NewLaura]

Google docs spreadsheet?  Or do you each have some version of Anki?

So...with Anki (or a google docs spreadsheet, for that matter), if I typed up a list of words with definitions in Baraha pad, I would theoretically be able to import them somehow?  And then I could share it so other people could add words, too?

I would be willing to try doing something like that.  My biggest concern is that I would introduce spelling errors.  Also, for some words, there might be a huge dictionary entry with multiple definitions, and I would be choosing which word(s) to include in the spreadsheet.

I also think I would be moving through the book much more slowly than other people.

[Dil Bert]

So...with Anki (or a google docs spreadsheet, for that matter), if I typed up a list of words with definitions in Baraha pad, I would theoretically be able to import them somehow?  And then I could share it so other people could add words, too?

With Google docs you can share all sorts of files, so you could share a Barah pad .rtf file.  It looks like if you don't use a native Google docs format, you have to download the file to edit it (or even read it, in the case of .rtf files).  I just tried some Chinese in a Google spreadsheet (one cell at a time) and a Google document (a block of text) and it worked, so if you want you should be able to copy from a Baraha pad file and paste into them.

Sharing
http://docs.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?topic=15149

I would be willing to try doing something like that.  My biggest concern is that I would introduce spelling errors.  Also, for some words, there might be a huge dictionary entry with multiple definitions, and I would be choosing which word(s) to include in the spreadsheet.

You each could have separate documents which the other person could read, instead of everyone editing a single shared document.

I think once y'all play around with different methods of sharing information you'll find a way which works best for you.

[NewLaura]

I poked around in Google Docs a little bit.  How about if we just had a simple shared document?  We don't need to make flash cards, right?  And, really, we don't even have to sort.  If we just added words under headings for each chapter (or even page number), it would be a simple vocab list to use while reading. 

I happened to have scribbled (emphasis on scribbled!) down some of the words I looked up in the last couple of pages, so I typed them in to a document.  I was just jotting notes for myself so I wouldn't have to look up the same word twice in five minutes, so I am sure there are spelling mistakes in the Hindi.  I'll do it more carefully in the future.

I've never used google docs before, but it looks like I just need your email address to add you to share the document.  Anyone who wants to share it, just pm me your email address.

[emel3]

Which Harry Potter -- the philosopher's stone or another?

[NewLaura]

Yes, the Philosopher's Stone.  James and I ordered it here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=2457684630&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26tn%3Dharry%2Bpotter%2Bhindi%26x%3D0%26y%3D0

[los angeles]

^ Slightly off-topic but I browsed around that site a bit, they have books by Premchand and Shivani as well as some other popular Hindi books. Has anyone here read these authors in Hindi, and would you be able to recommend any of their novels? Or any other novels by other desi authors who've written romance/ladies' fiction? I'm currently awaiting Parineeta and Madhavi (the Hindi versions) but they haven't arrived yet. I'm excited to read them but I'm also sure it's going to be quite challenging, and I imagine I'll be asking for help and looking up words all the time.

[James]

A professor I've recently taken a Hindi course with recommends Premchand.  As Omlick has pointed out elsewhere, his texts are challenging.  He has a series of short stories that he's written called Mansarovar, some of which have been collected and are available here.  Each story has a glossary at the end to aid with vocabulary.  You might consider trying that before you shell out some hard earned money, LA?  I might be able to join you in the reading if it's not too heavy.

Dil Bert, thanks a lot for the suggestions.  I totally forgot about Google Docs until you mentioned it!  

Laura, do you know Google Indic Transliteration?  I'm assuming- haven't tried it yet- that Google Docs would support it.  I don't know about you, but I find that much easier to use to type in devanagari script than Baraha, but whatever works is good!  

I was more or less thinking what you were suggesting- creating a list, under the heading of a chapter/page number, whatever- and then just share it amongst whoever chooses to read the book together.  Likely some of us would overlook words the other needs, etc., but it could be really useful in limiting dictionary work!  A simple, shared Google Docs shared spreadsheet should do the trick.  Even spelling mistakes shouldn't be too big of an issue because the questionable word is under the heading for a particular page, I think it'd be pretty easy to figure out what it's supposed to be. 

I'm honestly not too concerned that some of us may proceed faster than others- anyway, that's natural depending on differences in life circumstances, free time, yada yada.  It would be nice just to have someone to talk to- or post to!   - about the novel at around the same time, since I'm the only person I know gunning to do readings in Hindi.  It'll be encouraging.  What do you say?  

[los angeles]

A professor I've recently taken a Hindi course with recommends Premchand.  As Omlick has pointed out elsewhere, his texts are challenging.  He has a series of short stories that he's written called Mansarovar, some of which have been collected and are available here.  Each story has a glossary at the end to aid with vocabulary.

Thanks for that link!

You might consider trying that before you shell out some hard earned money, LA?

You know, the novels I got, and that I'm looking at ordering, are very inexpensive, surprisingly. Way less than I thought they'd be. I think because they're paperback copies, and not very in-demand, and the fact that they're shipping within the US, plus there was some sort of discount on them. So it's turned out all right so far.

I might be able to join you in the reading if it's not too heavy.

That would make things so much easier. Maybe when you, Omlick and Laura finish HP, we could try obtaining some fiction novel recs and then maybe go from there. That would be so fun!!

Random thought, we could make a Hindi Literature group on Facebook or something, since we're all friends on there anyways? Just an idea, so we wouldn't overload the forum with too many translation-help posts from whatever we happen to be reading? Or something like that. There's probably tons of options for how to go about meeting up online for the Reading Club.

[NewLaura]

Laura, do you know Google Indic Transliteration?  I'm assuming- haven't tried it yet- that Google Docs would support it.  I don't know about you, but I find that much easier to use to type in devanagari script than Baraha, but whatever works is good!  

No, I haven't used anything but Baraha.      I'll check it out, though, thanks for the tip.   

I was more or less thinking what you were suggesting- creating a list, under the heading of a chapter/page number, whatever- and then just share it amongst whoever chooses to read the book together.  Likely some of us would overlook words the other needs, etc., but it could be really useful in limiting dictionary work!  A simple, shared Google Docs shared spreadsheet should do the trick.  Even spelling mistakes shouldn't be too big of an issue because the questionable word is under the heading for a particular page, I think it'd be pretty easy to figure out what it's supposed to be. 

I'm honestly not too concerned that some of us may proceed faster than others- anyway, that's natural depending on differences in life circumstances, free time, yada yada.  It would be nice just to have someone to talk to- or post to!   - about the novel at around the same time, since I'm the only person I know gunning to do readings in Hindi.  It'll be encouraging.  What do you say?  

That sounds great!  And I'm so happy to about the whole thing!

I entered the 45 words I had scribbled down into a google docs spreadsheet.  I just entered the Hindi in one cell and the English in the one beside it and haven't done any formatting or anything like that.  Feel free to make changes, etc.  I don't know which pages these came from, but they were from the first six pages.  I think I need to email it to you to share it?  I've never done this before.

[omlick]

No, I haven't used anything but Baraha.      I'll check it out, though, thanks for the tip.   


That sounds great!  And I'm so happy to about the whole thing!

I entered the 45 words I had scribbled down into a google docs spreadsheet.  I just entered the Hindi in one cell and the English in the one beside it and haven't done any formatting or anything like that.  Feel free to make changes, etc.  I don't know which pages these came from, but they were from the first six pages.  I think I need to email it to you to share it?  I've never done this before.

Laura, you can put the spread sheet into a file.  I am thinking you can do it on my yahoogroup "huial."  I have a database section up there already, and  I would be glad to start another table for your database.  You can go to the database at huial and check it out and see what you think.

Rose
 

[Dil Bert]

I think I need to email it to you to share it?  I've never done this before.

To share the spreadsheet, look up top, after the spreadsheet name.  It may say something such as "Private to only me".  Click on that link, and you can add people, change the sharing settings, etc.  There's also a lot of help on sharing: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?hl=en&topic=15168

[NewLaura]

Laura, you can put the spread sheet into a file.  I am thinking you can do it on my yahoogroup "huial."  I have a database section up there already, and  I would be glad to start another table for your database.  You can go to the database at huial and check it out and see what you think.
Rose

I looked, but it seemed like you had to be a member of the group to access the database?  I think the google documents option will work.  Thanks for the offer, though.

To share the spreadsheet, look up top, after the spreadsheet name.  It may say something such as "Private to only me".  Click on that link, and you can add people, change the sharing settings, etc.  There's also a lot of help on sharing: http://docs.google.com/support/bin/topic.py?hl=en&topic=15168

Thanks, Dil Bert.  I set it for public viewing.  Anyone who wants to edit it, add words, etc.  --  I just need your email address to add you.

This is the link to view it:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AmC0eRq7HdprdExSdXJtaFc1X0Z6dUliZ2RPWEw3M0E&hl=en&authkey=CNy98p4I

[NewLaura]

I have a sentence I can't figure out, partially because I can't find all of the words, but mostly because I can't figure out the grammar.

from p.20, 3rd paragraph:

मेरे ख़ुद के बाँये घुटने के ऊपर एक निशान है, जो लंदन के अंडरग्राउंड का बेहतरीन नक़्शान है।

words I can't find:  बाँये, बेहतरीन

I myself have a scar (happened above...?) that is a ? painting (or charm?) of the London Underground.   

[carla]

I have a sentence I can't figure out, partially because I can't find all of the words, but mostly because I can't figure out the grammar.

from p.20, 3rd paragraph:

मेरे ख़ुद के बाँये घुटने के ऊपर एक निशान है, जो लंदन के अंडरग्राउंड का बेहतरीन नक़्शान है।

words I can't find:  बाँये, बेहतरीन

I myself have a scar (happened above...?) that is a ? painting (or charm?) of the London Underground.  

I think it's "above my left knee" and "an excellent map"    That is:  I myself have a scar above my left knee that is an excellent map of the London Underground.

ETA:  you said you were having trouble with the grammar; what aspect of it?  It looks like you unraveled the structure very well.  

Also, "behtarin" is an interesting word - it's a compound, and also I think better spelled बहतरीन, both of which are probably why you couldn't find it.  "beh" is a Persian word, meaning good.  -tar and -tarin are comparative and superlative affixes.  (It's worth getting to know this sort of affix because it will help you analyze words when you look them up in the dictionary.)  so "behtar" = better and as far as I know is actually cognate with better, which is a surprise to me - it looks like coincidence as Persian and English are distant cousins and don't usually line up so cleanly.  And finally, behtarin = the best, excellent.  

I wish I had this book and the time to read along with you, it seems ridiculously fun and I know I would learn a ton.  I'm going to try to carve out some time for it.

[NewLaura]

Thanks so much, Carla!  And you're right, now I realize my problem was vocabulary and not the grammar.  (When I couldn't figure it out, I thought it was another "jo" sentence that was tripping me up.  )

I hope you do get the book!  I never read any of them or saw the movies, but I'm having a lot of fun with it.

[emel3]

I'm on page 25 and it is MUCH easier now than when I started about a year ago! Must have improved my vocab or grammar or something...

[NewLaura]

update on my adventures in reading novels in Hindi 
 
I never posted back here after finishing the Harry Potter.  In terms of the Hindi used in the translation, it was a great choice, so thank you Omlick for suggesting it.  My progress was painfully slow at first because I had to look up so many words, and I was so slow using the big Oxford Hindi-English dictionary.  But...I had to look up fewer words as I went along, and I got sooo much faster with the dictionary with all that practice.      When I started, I had to force myself to read a page every day.  By the end, I could sit down and read 5 pages fairly painlessly (and probably in about the same amount of time).

After finishing HP, I was really looking forward to reading a novel that was set in India.  I went to an Indian bookstore, thinking that I could browse through novels and find one that looked good.  Well, they had a section of novels, but none of them included a synopsis, and the covers were all just plain and unillustrated, too.  It wasn't nearly as easy to browse as I had imagined.  So I picked out a short Tagore novel, घर और बाहर.  And I learned that reading a Bengali novel translated into Hindi was maybe not such a great choice.  When I told v9y I was struggling with it, he instantly said “Oh, that’s not a good book for you.”  He explained to me that there would be a lot of Sanskrit words in the original Bengali that the translator would just re-use in the Hindi.  (I hope I’m representing what he said correctly.)  All I know is I had to look up so many words, and they were all a mile long and all seemed to begin with प्र or स्व.  I was looking up so many words that by the end of a paragraph, I wouldn’t even know what it had been about.  (I was basically missing the forest for the trees -- and I wasn't even learning the trees as I went along!)  So I decided I was just going to read it and not look up any words at all.     I had a very vague understanding of the general idea of the book, but I read much more quickly.  When I was about half way through, I downloaded a kindle version of an English translation on my phone.  I re-read the first half in English, and after that I finished the second half in Hindi and found I understood much more as I was reading.  It’s a good book, but the vocabulary was just too far above my head.

v9y gave me जागी रातों के किस्से by Mahesh Bhatt, and so far I am really enjoying it.  It’s definitely my favorite of the three books I’ve tried so far.  It’s a collection of about 70 short, 1½ page essays he wrote about the film industry for (I think) नवरंग between May 2001 and July 2002.  In the first one, he talks about Hrithik Roshan and suggests that SRK and Salman are over.  The essay is dated just before Lagaan released, and he writes about Aamir:  अगर उनकी 'लगान' नहीं चलती है तो वे भी 'लोकप्रिय थे' की श्रेणी में आ जाएंगे.    The Hindi is much more manageable for me than घर और बाहर.  I’m really having fun reading about people from the Hindi film industry, and I'm able to read it relatively painlessly.     I'll post again when I finish it and let you know how it went.

[James]

Thanks for sharing your experience, Laura.  I wouldn't have necessarily considered the problems with a translation from another Indian language to Hindi like you mentioned here, and may have gotten something like Parineeta, myself.  Now I know to wait till I've gotten more comfortable with simpler prose.

I checked just out of curiosity, and it turns out that the Toronto Public Library actually has two copies of 'jaagi raaton ke kisse', so I've booked one and will take a look.  It sounds like a lot of fun to combine an interest with Hindi and Hindi films.  I'm looking forward to it.   

By the way, have you considered creating a blog?  You could post your thoughts about books you've read and practice your Hindi that way.  I'd definitely 'follow', read, and post comments. 

[konkanikudi]

I second James' suggestion of a blog and I would certainly follow you as well! I don't know if this has been a topic before but other than libraries, where are good places to get books in Hindi?

[James]

I posed that same question once before, KK, and you can see the thread in the Resource Room by clicking here.  Prices don't compare to what you get in India, though I find they're reasonable by Western prices. India Club has excellent customer service and I've found books on abebooks.com as well, often the cheapest prices there.  Amazon.com/.ca also often have books in Hindi.  It helps if you know what title you're looking for because then you can really shop around.  And I'd suggest you do shop around, because when I've looked for specific titles in the past and done just that, I've saved more than 50% of prices I saw on different websites.

[NewLaura]

Gosh, I would love to think I would be able to blog about reading the Hindi books, but I just don’t know if  I could manage it.     Thanks so much for the suggestion and the encouragement, though!  

I bet you wouldn’t have as much trouble with Ghar aur Baahar as I did, James.  I definitely would have bought Parineeta if I saw it.  I bought Devdas, but I haven’t tried to read it yet to see if the vocabulary is similar to Ghar aur Baahar.  I also bought Godaan by Premchand, because the bookstore owner insisted (very nicely) that I just had to read it because they all read it in school in India.  Now how could I resist that argument?    Then I got home and read a synopsis on Wikipedia:

spoilers for the whole plot (I assume)

It was first published in 1936 and is considered the greatest Hindi novel of modern Indian literature, although originally written in Urdu. [1] Themed around the socio economic deprivation as well as the exploitation of the village poor, the novel was the last complete novel of Premchand. [2] …The protagonist, Hori, a poor peasant, desperately longs for a cow, a symbol of wealth and prestige in rural India. In a Faustian twist of fate, Hori gets his cow, but pays for it with his life. After his death, the village priests demand a cow from his widow to bring his soul absolution, and peace (Godaan). The narrative represents the average Indian farmer's existence under colonial rule, with the protagonist facing cultural and feudal exploitation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godaan

While the thought of reading “the greatest Hindi novel of modern Indian literature” is very appealing, I find the prospect of months and months spent reading a 350-page book in Hindi about “socio economic deprivation as well as the exploitation of the village poor” decidedly less appealing.  I’m going to save it until I’ve gotten a little faster reading in Hindi.  

I’m really loving Jaagii Raaton Ke Kisse.  I’ve read the first dozen stories and really enjoyed them.  So far, they’re basically short memoirs about small interactions Mahesh Bhatt has had with various people from the film industry, or his musings on topics to do with the film industry.  It would be great if you read it, too, James, because there are interesting things we could talk about.  I keep reminding myself that I shouldn’t think of the biographical-type anecdotes as necessarily “true” and/or re-tell them, though, because (1) I may be misunderstanding them   , and (2) they’re clearly very subjective.  (It’s kind of interesting to think about what they reveal about Mahesh Bhatt, too.)  I’m really having fun reading them so far.  

[James]

Gosh, I would love to think I would be able to blog about reading the Hindi books, but I just don’t know if  I could manage it.     Thanks so much for the suggestion and the encouragement, though!

It's probably hard enough just to find the time to read the books.  I know it is for me.  The reason I thought of it, though, is actually due to advice a French prof gave me once.  I had complained to her that I don't really know any francophones aside from my profs (one or two friends in real life who don't live in Toronto), so whilst I understood novels, news, tv, etc., just fine, expressing myself in French was really difficult.  She suggested I keep a blog because it would allow me to use the grammar and vocab, and even if I'm not speaking regularly or perhaps have a bit of an accent, when the opportunity does arise it would be easy to speak because I still make use of the language and am accustomed to expressing myself in French.

So it would definitely be more work, take more time, perhaps be difficult, but definitely help with fluency.  I'm thinking I might try to do this myself, and if I follow through I'll let you and KK know, if you're interested.  All I request is you don't hold bad hindi against me.      Though comments and corrections would be very welcome!!!

I did request the book, by the way, and since there are no holds on it, I should have it by the end of the coming week.  I'll let you know how I'm enjoying it when the time comes.  

[konkanikudi]

I'm thinking I might try to do this myself, and if I follow through I'll let you and KK know, if you're interested.  All I request is you don't hold bad hindi against me.      Though comments and corrections would be very welcome!!!

Please do let me know! I would love to read it! You know I grew up speaking Hindi and just having it be part of my curriculum thanks to the Indian School system and I never realized until much later how much I enjoyed reading Hindi literature. Of course, I was too cool back then to admit it.

[NewLaura]

It's probably hard enough just to find the time to read the books.  I know it is for me.  The reason I thought of it, though, is actually due to advice a French prof gave me once.  I had complained to her that I don't really know any francophones aside from my profs (one or two friends in real life who don't live in Toronto), so whilst I understood novels, news, tv, etc., just fine, expressing myself in French was really difficult.  She suggested I keep a blog because it would allow me to use the grammar and vocab, and even if I'm not speaking regularly or perhaps have a bit of an accent, when the opportunity does arise it would be easy to speak because I still make use of the language and am accustomed to expressing myself in French.

So it would definitely be more work, take more time, perhaps be difficult, but definitely help with fluency.  I'm thinking I might try to do this myself, and if I follow through I'll let you and KK know, if you're interested.  All I request is you don't hold bad hindi against me.      Though comments and corrections would be very welcome!!!

I think it would be tremendous for practicing Hindi.  It makes a big difference when you have to do something active with it, I think.  I know it made a huge difference for me that I committed to trying to write practice sentences for each chapter of the Snell as I worked through it.  I don't think I'm quite up to blogging in Hindi.  I would love it if you did it, though!   

I did request the book, by the way, and since there are no holds on it, I should have it by the end of the coming week.  I'll let you know how I'm enjoying it when the time comes.  

Great!  I'll be interested to hear what you think of it.  I keep wondering how these film industry people felt about Mahesh Bhatt writing these stories about them.  I think I would be pretty ticked off if someone I considered a friend or colleague published an account of a private conversation we had.      I hope he cleared it with them first.