Reading Club?

[James]

Are there enough of us on here now who would perhaps be interested in reading something together, so we could collaborate and discuss grammar issues and the book itself?

We could do some short stories, or perhaps take up Omlick's suggestion to get the Hindi version of Harry Potter.

Any takers?

[NewLaura]

I would definitely be interested!  I'm slow and a beginner, though.

I've slowly been working my way through Usha Jain's Intermediate Hindi Reader, and I was thinking about starting a "support" thread for it like the Snell thread.  There are times when I can't figure out what a sentence means, even though I can translate the individual words.   

[omlick]

Are there enough of us on here now who would perhaps be interested in reading something together, so we could collaborate and discuss grammar issues and the book itself?

We could do some short stories, or perhaps take up Omlick's suggestion to get the Hindi version of Harry Potter.

Any takers?

Sure, that would be fun.

[James]

NewLaura, I recall you went entirely through Snell, right?  I imagine vocabulary and idioms would be your greatest challenge at this point?

Sounds like exactly the sort of thing we could all collaborate on.  I actually have the reader you've referenced, and it's an interesting melange of different levels of Hindi from very Sanskritized to much more natural forms of the language.  The very first piece is actually a very good example of Sanskritization, and is actually a very difficult passage.  If you turn to the lok katha, I think you'll find it much easier going.

I'd be happy to read some passages from that with you and Omlick.  Do you also have the text Omlick?  If not, maybe we could make some sort of arrangement.

I'm game for Harry Potter, too.  I've never read it in English, so it'll be new and (hopefully! ) interesting.

[omlick]

I am not sure if I have that reader, I will have to look.

But whatever book you choose, I will be okay with it.  I would start with an easy language book, The first Harry Potter has the easiest language as it was geared to kids that were about 10 years old.  I don't have it in Hindi, but I think  it can be bought at indiaclub.com

[NewLaura]

Yes, I finished the Snell, and I'm on chapter 13 (the Gandhi one) of the Intermediate Hindi Reader.   I didn't realize that first chapter was Sanskritized, but, boy, was it boring!     It's this dry list of geographical attributes of India.  I kept falling asleep when I was reading it.

That would be great if we read some of the the stories in that reader.  I've been writing out translations of each chapter as I went along, and I marked the sentences that I didn't understand so I could try to go back later.   

I think I would also enjoy trying the Harry Potter.  I haven't read it in English, either.

[carla]

I'd like to participate as well, time permitting.   I have read much of the Jain Intermediate reader as well - several years ago - I found it on te whole very engaging and a good progression in difficulty.  

Another nice piece that is engaging and not too terribly hard to read is Javed Akhtar's little autobiographical sketch "Apne baare mein" - you can find it on his website here.   It's posted in both Hindi script and Urdu script, as well as in English translation.  I printed off the Hindi and read it also a few years ago and found it very accessible.  I only had to look up a couple of words per page.  

[James]

I'd have to order Harry Potter, as well, and that's probably going to take at least 2 wks.  Perhaps we could choose something from the reader for now and then move on to the rest when it becomes available?

Anything in particular you'd like to go over, NewLaura?

[NewLaura]

Well, since you asked, I'd love to go over the one I've currently been reading:  ch.13 "Some episodes from 'The Story of My Experiments with Truth' by M.K. Gandhi" (pp.145-149).    

I've had questions in every chapter, though, so I'd be very happy to do any of them.

[carla]

I'll probably have to sit out the first round - I have a huge work deadline in two weeks and probably can't justify spending an afternoon reading through a Hindi text - but I do want to be involved and look forward to the next round.

[emel3]

Can I read too? I have the technology...

[James]

The more the merrier, emel.  

I've read the text, NewLaura, and aside from vocabulary I think I understood it well enough.  Any particular sentences that threw you?

I've ordered the Harry Potter book, should have it in a couple of weeks.  Anyone want to go ahead with that as well?

[NewLaura]

I've read the text, NewLaura, and aside from vocabulary I think I understood it well enough.  Any particular sentences that threw you?

Yes, there were a few.  

First I have a general question about the text.  Was he traveling to Pretoria about a completely unrelated case, and then happened to experience these incidents on the train and stagecoach?  Or had he been called there because of the problems Indians were having with the transportation system?


On to specific sentences...  

Here's a sentence I can't quite sort out (from p.146, 7th paragraph):

मैंने अपना कर्त्तव्य सोचा, -- "या तो मुझे अपने हक़ों के  लिए लड़ना  चाहिए या वापस  जाना  चाहिए, अन्यथा  जो  अपमान होते हैं उन्हें सहन करूँ और प्रिटोरिया पहुँचूँ और मुक़दमा ख़त्म करके देश को लौट जाऊँ ।

And this is as far as I have gotten with it so far:

I thought of my duty -- "I needed either to fight for my rights or I needed to go back, otherwise he to whom disrespect happens, he would endure it and would reach Pretoria and would drop the lawsuit and would return to his country.

I think he is saying that if he let himself endure disrespect without fighting for his rights, then he should just not work on the lawsuit at all and should just go back to India?  How would you translate the sentence?



ETA:  And I'll order the Harry Potter, too.  Where did you order it?

[spellstone]

I love the HP idea (already used the book when learning German) but NewLaura's post shows that my hindi reading skills are waaaaaaay behind 

[James]

मैंने अपना कर्त्तव्य सोचा, -- "या तो मुझे अपने हक़ों के  लिए लड़ना  चाहिए या वापस  जाना  चाहिए, अन्यथा  जो  अपमान होते हैं उन्हें सहन करूँ और प्रिटोरिया पहुँचूँ और मुक़दमा ख़त्म करके देश को लौट जाऊँ ।

And this is as far as I have gotten with it so far:

I thought of my duty -- "I needed either to fight for my rights or I needed to go back, otherwise he to whom disrespect happens, he would endure it and would reach Pretoria and would drop the lawsuit and would return to his country.

I have, "I thought of my duty- "Either I ought to fight for my rights or go back, otherwise I may have to tolerate these insults, and reaching Pretoria, finish the lawsuit and go back to (my) country".  (khatm karna=samaapt karna=to finish)

Sometimes when people say things like, 'jo apmaan hote hain' (lit. 'these insults that exist'),  they're using jo not so much as a subject for a human but as a means of giving special emphasis.  'jo' is used like that often.  The insults are the subject of the sentence, not 'he/him', as such.  I try to figure out who the verb is agreeing with to determine the subject, that usually clears things up for me.

In the following sentence, the 'unhe.n' is referring back to those insults that exist, and the human subject 'main' has been dropped since the speaker is established, which is why the verb is conjugated in the first person singular subjunctive 'karoon' that would agree with main/I and not something plural to agree with the 'unhen'.  So the sentence reads, 'I'll have to tolerate/bear them (the insults)' and not "he would endure it".  

I think he is saying that if he let himself endure disrespect without fighting for his rights, then he should just not work on the lawsuit at all and should just go back to India?  How would you translate the sentence?

I think he's saying that either he should go and do what he's already agreed to- the lawsuit- and then return to India, or stay and fight for his rights.  I don't think the lawsuit itself is in question, though the sentence is a bit confusing because even the arriving at Pretoria is in the subjunctive, so it makes it seem like maybe not completing it is an option.  I could be wrong, but I'm reading it as an 'either/or' sentence as set out in the first clause, and I believe the arriving in Pretoria is in the subjunctive just because he's speaking in hypotheticals (either I do X or either I do Y).

ETA:  And I'll order the Harry Potter, too.  Where did you order it?

I imported it from the States.  The best deal I could find was through abebooks.com.

I love the HP idea (already used the book when learning German) but NewLaura's post shows that my hindi reading skills are waaaaaaay behind  

Well, this is the sentence that was the most problematic in the text, and not the whole reading was this difficult.  There are a lot of words we all would have to look up in most any text, though, approaching the language as foreigners.  I doubt HP would be as difficult as a passage by Gandhi would be, though unfortunately I couldn't yet give you an example to illustrate the difference.  Still, if you had something else you felt was more appropriate to go through and had any questions, I'm sure you'd find people willing to help out.    Check the resources section of this forum for some of the online stories- maybe you could start from there?

[NewLaura]

Thanks so much, James.  That was really helpful.  I think there's another "jo" sentence I was having trouble with -- I'll give it another try and be back.   

[James]

I'm happy I was helpful, Laura.    Any further questions on this particular reading, or would you like to discuss another?

[NewLaura]

I have some more questions on this one.    I'll try to get back with them today.  Thanks, James!

[NewLaura]

I've tried again with another "jo" sentence at the end of the same paragraph (p.146, paragraph 7), and I just can't figure it out.   

उसमें अपने ऊपर जो कष्ट आयें उन्हें सहना चाहिए और उसका विरोध बस उतना ही करना चाहिए जितना रंग-द्वेष दूर करने के लिए आवश्यक हो ।

At first, I had:

He on whom his God brings these sufferings, he must endure them and his opposition must rise up enough to remove color prejudice.

But now I'm not so sure whether ऊपर refers to God or it should be something more along the lines of:

These troubles that came upon himself must be endured, and his opposition must rise up enough to remove color prejudice.


I think I'm stuck.   

[konkanikudi]

I've tried again with another "jo" sentence at the end of the same paragraph (p.146, paragraph 7), and I just can't figure it out.   

उसमें अपने ऊपर जो कष्ट आयें उन्हें सहना चाहिए और उसका विरोध बस उतना ही करना चाहिए जितना रंग-द्वेष दूर करने के लिए आवश्यक हो ।

At first, I had:

He on whom his God brings these sufferings, he must endure them and his opposition must rise up enough to remove color prejudice.

But now I'm not so sure whether ऊपर refers to God or it should be something more along the lines of:

These troubles that came upon himself must be endured, and his opposition must rise up enough to remove color prejudice.


I think I'm stuck.   

Actually your second explanation is more like it. 'Upar' doesn't refer to God but rather 'upon oneself' i.e in a reflexive manner.

[NewLaura]

Actually your second explanation is more like it. 'Upar' doesn't refer to God but rather 'upon oneself' i.e in a reflexive manner.

Okay, thanks!

[James]

I've tried again with another "jo" sentence at the end of the same paragraph (p.146, paragraph 7), and I just can't figure it out.  

उसमें अपने ऊपर जो कष्ट आयें उन्हें सहना चाहिए और उसका विरोध बस उतना ही करना चाहिए जितना रंग-द्वेष दूर करने के लिए आवश्यक हो ।

At first, I had:

He on whom his God brings these sufferings, he must endure them and his opposition must rise up enough to remove color prejudice.

But now I'm not so sure whether ऊपर refers to God or it should be something more along the lines of:

These troubles that came upon himself must be endured, and his opposition must rise up enough to remove color prejudice.


I think I'm stuck.  

Konkani kudi is right, of course.  'upar' is used in the sense of God only when it is 'uparvaalaa', because that turns it into a noun.  This is really just more reflexive than anything else, sort of like, 'apane aapko'.

उसमें अपने ऊपर जो कष्ट आयें उन्हें सहना चाहिए और उसका विरोध बस उतना ही करना चाहिए जितना रंग-द्वेष दूर करने के लिए आवश्यक हो ।

Here, the 'usmein' is refering to his fight against racism.  

First clause:
usmen apane uupar jo kashT aae.n, unhen sahanaa chaahiye

In the battle against racism (usmen), whatever (jo) troubles come my way (the verb is in the subjunctive because he's not sure what troubles will need to be faced), I ought to bear them (unhen=kashT)

Second clause:

aur uska virodh bas utna hii karnaa chaahiye jitna rang-dvesh dur karne ke liye aavashyak ho

and it (uska=racism) ought to be opposed only (utanaa hii) as much as (jitnaa) necessary (aavashyak) to remove racism.
( x ka virodh karna = to oppose X)
(dur karna= to put at a distance/remove)

Does this help at all?  I'm just reviewing the rules on 'jo' in my grammar book now, but can't seem to come up with a good explanation for how to use it in my own words...

[NewLaura]

That is a HUGE help, James!  Thank you so much. 

Geez, is that a hard sentence.  I don't think I ever would have been able to figure that out on my own.      Thank you for explaining all of it.

[NewLaura]

I got the Harry Potter book, and I've read the first six pages.  

I am thrilled to report that I find the grammar so much easier than the grammar in that Jain Intermediate Hindi Reader.  I find that I can read it relatively easily, in terms of the grammar, at least.  I do have to look up a lot of words.  But, whereas most of the words I had to look up for the Jain reader were in the little Snell Teach Yourself Hindi Dictionary, almost none of the Harry Potter words are.  I have to use the big Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary for almost all of them (so I've pretty much given up even trying the little dictionary at this point).  

At first, I had this idea that I would try not to stop and look up many words and just go for the basic "gist" of the story.  I was reading it in a Starbucks while I waited for one of my kids somewhere (and I think I totally freaked out an Indian guy who saw me and stopped to ask where I got the book  ).  I only had the little Snell dictionary with me, and it didn't have the few words I tried.  I really started to wonder why it kept mentioning these चोगा पहने लोग * because चोगा wasn't in that dictionary.  I had to laugh when I got home and looked it up in the Oxford dictionary.    And I realized I was just going to have to lug the big dictionary around with me and use it.  

I'm moving pretty slowly.  But I'm getting a lot faster with the Oxford dictionary, at least.     And it's really fun to feel like I'm reading, finally.  I'm enjoying it much more than the Jain reader, just because it doesn't feel so laborious.  With that reader, there were so many times that I would know the meaning of every word in a sentence, and still not be sure what the sentence meant.  But that hasn't happened yet in six pages of the Harry Potter.    That makes me very happy.



* people wearing capes  

[James]

I've since received my copy as well.  Should we start reading the first chapter and then discuss anything that needs to be discussed thereafter?

I also have to look up a lot of vocabulary, but I find that the dialogues and overall language come across as very natural.  I wonder if there's any way we could help each other with the vocab...  Any ideas?