Mumbai Attacks, November 26, 2008

[Poonam]

What a nightmare. It feels like the country has come to a standstill. I suppose it has. I've lived in Mumbai and at one time, even worked for the Taj Group. Maybe one of the intentions was to attack a popular, high-profile tourist watering-hole, but the Taj (and to some extent, the Oberoi) are much more than that. They're symbols, much like the World Trade Centre. Taj Mahal Hotel especially is part of Mumbai's history. I have been through that fabulous white, marble lobby so many times and have vivid memories of the old wing (partly now burned) - full of antiques, old paintings, prints, etc. ...*sigh* Not that all of this is as important though, as the lives of all those people who were killed (many were hotel staff and some of the rescued people have been very vocal abt how wonderful the staff were in helping them get out)

I don't know what it takes to make our intelligence guys function better. Apparently they did have info about terrorists sneaking in through the sea (these guys landed in a ruber dinghy). the Navy and Coastguard did a security exercise on Nov 19 - but after that...nothing. Locals saw the terrorists after they landed and even noticed severl unusual factors about them - they were hauling out lots of heavy rucksacks and were totally uncommunicative...bad luck for Mumbai that none of them thought fit to alert the police.

It also seems that the hand of Dawood, (India's most wanted, now hiding in Pakistan) could be a factor. His local goons could have provided lots of info abt the layout of the hotels to the terrorists, since they seemed to be very familiar with these places.

Since yesterday evening, commandos have been landing by helicopter on the rooftops of the Oberoi and Nariman House in Colaba. A little while ago, around 37 hostages came out of Oberoi-Trident and left in buses. they've spent some 35 hours locked up in dark hotel rooms (power was shut off). It's a slow operation, since the Taj is a huge, rambling place, and the Oberoi has several hundred rooms too. My reckoning is this will take at least the rest of the day, if not one more.

[wannabe]

I don't know what it takes to make our intelligence guys function better. Apparently they did have info about terrorists sneaking in through the sea (these guys landed in a ruber dinghy). the Navy and Coastguard did a security exercise on Nov 19 - but after that...nothing. Locals saw the terrorists after they landed and even noticed severl unusual factors about them - they were hauling out lots of heavy rucksacks and were totally uncommunicative...bad luck for Mumbai that none of them thought fit to alert the police.

I don't think the problem is intelligence. Before this attack, as well as all the previous attacks this past year, the intelligence community issued alerts and warnings. Unfortunately, they report to politicians, who are the ones to decide on what to do with the alerts and warnings.  And we know how well they can think and act!   

It is just like the case with the army -- competent, efficient people who are raring to do the jobs for which they are trained, and through which they want to serve the country, but who are hampered and frustrated from doing what they know is necessary by complacent, pompous, ass-covering politicians.

[nicoletta]

Watching the flames at the Taj froze my heart. I remember getting to the swimming pool with no particular problems with my group of friends when we visited Mumbai. Probably the security didn't care because we were (and very much looked...) a bunch of distracted Italian tourists. Yet I remember vaguely thinking that controls should have been tighter.
When such things happen the best thing is keeping your brains cool and avoid jumping to conclusions. It is very difficult of course. To think that somebody could have fired on the crowd at the central station...what a world.
It struck me that among the first to die was the secret service Head of Mumbai (if I am correct). That is very unusual. The circumstances ought to be explained.

[wannabe]

Staff emerge as heroes in Mumbai hotel sieges

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE4AR1OY20081128

[wannabe]

I don't think the terrorists were targeting Muslims specfically (unlike the attacks against mosques). It's just that the Muslim and non-Muslim population in India is so interwoven that any time an attack happens in a public place, both sets of people will be victims.

Something I meant to say here but forgot -- If you look at the names of the police officials, rescue people, and reporters, you will see plenty of Muslims there, also.  For example, the police commissioner of Mumbai is someone called Hassan Gafoor.  Every time I see an official statement issued by him updating the status, I am struck by this fact.  That is why it is a crock to say that there is this great divide between Muslims and others in India.

[Poonam]

I don't think the problem is intelligence. Before this attack, as well as all the previous attacks this past year, the intelligence community issued alerts and warnings. Unfortunately, they report to politicians, who are the ones to decide on what to do with the alerts and warnings.  And we know how well they can think and act!   

It is just like the case with the army -- competent, efficient people who are raring to do the jobs for which they are trained, and through which they want to serve the country, but who are hampered and frustrated from doing what they know is necessary by complacent, pompous, ass-covering politicians.

You have a point there. Our Home Minister, in particular - that guy should have been sacked long ago when there were blasts under his nose in Delhi.

Sad news when I turned on the tv just now - 5 hostages have died in the commando operations at Nariman House. Also, the Taj is still far from secure, there are gunshots emanating from there and a grenade was lobbed. the Oberoi seems to be clear. It's going to be another long night for the hostages.

[LinKarish]

Something I meant to say here but forgot -- If you look at the names of the police officials, rescue people, and reporters, you will see plenty of Muslims there, also.  For example, the police commissioner of Mumbai is someone called Hassan Gafoor.  Every time I see an official statement issued by him updating the status, I am struck by this fact.  That is why it is a crock to say that there is this great divide between Muslims and others in India.

This is something that's been bothering me about CNN's coverage--and MSNBC as well. but not to the extent of CNN.  They kept on saying over and over again about the unhappiness of many Muslims with India's relationship with the U.S. etc and that they felt marginalized.  I am not really disputing any of this, but I don't know to just say it as if that's all there is to it, it annoyed me.

About the homegrown factor--no way is this just about Kashmir or even just Indian Muslims acting out on their greivances.  The fact they targeted Jews and Israelis specifically.  Yes, one would think that's a natural target for Islamic radicals.  But it really doesn't seem possible that a homegrown group would all the sudden decide to add Jews in India to their attack targets.  That alone just screams a considerable outside influence.

[Amba]

About the homegrown factor--no way is this just about Kashmir or even just Indian Muslims acting out on their greivances.  The fact they targeted Jews and Israelis specifically.  Yes, one would think that's a natural target for Islamic radicals.  But it really doesn't seem possible that a homegrown group would all the sudden decide to add Jews in India to their attack targets.  That alone just screams a considerable outside influence

There are reports trickling in now that suggest that some of the terrorists may be British Pakistanis. In response to the self-flagellating narrative prized by some segments of the left regarding "root causes", Muslim disaffection, etc., it's worth pointing out that the gunmen don't appear to be impoverished themselves - a man who encountered them described them as looking like soft-skinned students. I dare say they probably have less experience with poverty and disenfranchisement than some of the people they murdered. 

[bollyking]

If India is a world power it’s time that she start acting like one.  That means not constantly worrying about what squabbling minority is going to be alienated at the polls or what the Americans are going to complain about when we take pakistan to task for their support of terrorism.

Part of the problem is the defense establishment is run by the same corrupt politicians who are ruining the rest of India.  How can we put so much of our resources into defense and allow the establishment to be run by incompitent and illiterate babus?

For too long the nation’s defense policy is being held hostage by mindless crooked politicians along with their allies, useless socialist socialites like arundhati roy who make their living by speaking and writing in the west, trying to convince others that there is no security threat from within, that any violence against India is somehow self-inflicted, and that any action against terrorists and militants is just a violation of human rights.  How long are we going to allow our nation to be humiliated by incidents like this, the IA hijack and our citizens murdered in the 7/11 bombings?  Maybe now that these attacks resulted in the bodies of rich people being brought to the morgue instead of jawans and poor chaiwalas things will change.  It’s time we took matters in our own hands.

We've been afraid long enough--its their turn now.

[LinKarish]

Another thing I've noticed about U.S. coverage is that many of them talk about India's finger pointing--which is true.  But when they mention the Kabul bombings, they only mention that the Indian gov't suspects and accuses the ISI of it, and that too in a very -he said/she said tone.  Very few mention that the U.S./CIA basically confirmed the ISI hand in it.  That piece of information gives a lot more credibility to the Indian gov't's suspicions.  

And the Indian media need to stop calling it India's 9-11.  What about the previous attacks? And further more, it shouldn't be compared by equating another event to it.  Why the need for it?  Just call it what it is.  

Also the politicians are all freaking ridiculous.  Modi speaks in front of the Trident while hostages and attacks are still going on.  Deshmukh makes some other loony stuff.

There are reports that the gov't/intelligence warned of some sort of attack brewing from the sea, but these boats weren't stopped, nor were the state gov'ts much better.

[Darshana]

I've noticed the absence of mention on CNN of the death of Indiia's anti-terror leaders, which I read about frequently on Wednesday.

I am wondering if this was either wrong information, published in the early chaos, or if an effort is being made to keep some information off the airways in the interests of the rescue and containment missions.   I am hoping the latter.  Comments here from those of you in or close to India especially help me to understand assorted impressions, of both competence and incompetence, about how this is being managed.

I hope there are concerted efforts to neutralize the possibility of "backlash" and rioting that have occurred in reaction to some Indian catastrophes.

[emel3]

Did you hear that 5 hostages in the Jewish centre were killed?  That means that the poor son of the Rabbi and his wife is now the only survivor of their small family -- no mother or father anymore.... that's sooo sad 

So sad all the people who died so needlessly.  Why? Human life so dear and yet so cheap to some.  I guess I don't understand the world at all

[indigal]

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/saja/

Some discusssion on Chabad house going on amongst othere.

[etu]

In addition to the sad story about the rabbi and his wife, am beyond sad for all of the innocent Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Christians, and non-believers who may have gotten caught up in this senseless violence.

I am also amazed at the accounts of heroism by Taj and Oberoi hotel staff, including one man who put himself between a terrorist's gun and a woman and child. The staff member was shot in the intestines, and the woman's husband nursed him for seven hours with bed sheets. The staff member was taken to a hospital. At this point, the family doesn't know his welfare.

So far, out-of-control retaliation hasn't spread all over the city. Is it too much to hope for a united, reasoned response to a radical, perhaps externally-driven, fringe element? Or are the groups who are more likely to lash out at innocent local Muslims only laying low now because it's too scary to go out?

A reporter appeared in front of the Taj on CNN, saying that the police lines are very lax, and she practically walked into the lobby yesterday. Then she ducked as a bullet flew by. Another woman had a pen light on her face because the police asked her cameraman to turn off his on-camera lamp since someone was still firing and throwing grenades from a window in the Taj. News operations are all about talking up how brave their journalists are. And yes, they are brave to be there and do that work. It's important. But it also seems very, very foolish to me to make the rescue operations any more difficult than they already are. Let the police and army do their work first. The news needs to fit around that, not the other way around. Plainly put, back away! Don't stand in the lobby!

It may be too early to discuss this point of information but it's on my mind. Until I watched a documentary on Sundance with the rude title "K*** Like Me," I did not know that the Lubavitchers actively sought converts. I had not heard of any Jewish sects doing that. And until Wednesday, I did not know Lubavitchers were in Mumbai. Their center in Brooklyn was shown in that documentary and again on tonight's news. This does not mean that the Chabad/Nariman House was a location for conversions because reporters said early on in this conflict that Jews in India tend to keep a low profile. It seemed like their main goal was to act as hosts to Jewish and Israeli travelers and train locals to speak Hebrew. The young rabbi and his wife looked very sweet. So sad. Even though I am fundamentally opposed to proselytizing, I know people who believe strongly in it and they are very fine people, too.

[etu]

Interestingly, Rahul Bose has offered to be a news source/reporter on the SAJA site. I wonder if any media took him up on it.
http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/11/mumbai-attacks-us-canadia-press.html

He's a brave guy.

ETA, here's an interesting discussion on the quality of reporting on the scenes:
http://www.sajaforum.org/2008/11/mumbai-attacks-critique-the-media-coverage.html

[omlick]

I've noticed the absence of mention on CNN of the death of Indiia's anti-terror leaders, which I read about frequently on Wednesday.

I am wondering if this was either wrong information, published in the early chaos, or if an effort is being made to keep some information off the airways in the interests of the rescue and containment missions.   I am hoping the latter.  Comments here from those of you in or close to India especially help me to understand assorted impressions, of both competence and incompetence, about how this is being managed.

I hope there are concerted efforts to neutralize the possibility of "backlash" and rioting that have occurred in reaction to some Indian catastrophes.

No, on Wednesday CNN had reported that the  ATS leader had been killed.

[omlick]

Did you hear that 5 hostages in the Jewish centre were killed?  That means that the poor son of the Rabbi and his wife is now the only survivor of their small family -- no mother or father anymore.... that's sooo sad 

So sad all the people who died so needlessly.  Why? Human life so dear and yet so cheap to some.  I guess I don't understand the world at all

I was surprised to hear that the Chassid were in Mumbai, I thoiught that there we no more Jews left there, only a small synagogue of a few elderly Jews since most of the Jewish Marathi population had left for Israel already.  I though the Chassid were in t Northern India somewhere only where the Israelis hang out, at least that is what I read in the book "Holy Cow."

My first thought was what are they doing in Mumbai?  My second thought was I guess they did not understand in Brooklyn that India was not a safe place to send their folks.  I mean I am sure they believed that India was a safe place to send their people, but they were wrong. 

I know some of the same community here in Portland and I feel really sorry for them, but they are willing to riisk their people and I think they like other missionaries have to know that they can be in danger.  I mean sometimes they are in danger in Brooklyn itself.

[JenniferJanu]

So far, out-of-control retaliation hasn't spread all over the city. Is it too much to hope for a united, reasoned response to a radical, perhaps externally-driven, fringe element? Or are the groups who are more likely to lash out at innocent local Muslims only laying low now because it's too scary to go out?

This is different from the '92 and '93 Muslim-Hindu riots because then, the tension and violence was specifically a religious dispute. These attacks were on people of all religious (Muslims and Hindus were both killed by these Muslim attackers) and for seemingly no CLEAR reason other than to spread terror. So I don't think you'll see communal violence and anti-Muslim sentiment running high this time around. I think you'll see a lot of Indians coming together over this. (At least, let's hope so).

On another note, CNN keeps saying that "Jews, Americans and Britons were targeted" in the attacks, but so many Indians were killed and they barely mention this fact. I hate the way CNN is trying to make some tidy conclusion to this when it's so obviously more complicated than that.

[omlick]

This is different from the '92 and '93 Muslim-Hindu riots because then, the tension and violence was specifically a religious dispute. These attacks were on people of all religious (Muslims and Hindus were both killed by these Muslim attackers) and for seemingly no CLEAR reason other than to spread terror. So I don't think you'll see communal violence and anti-Muslim sentiment running high this time around. I think you'll see a lot of Indians coming together over this. (At least, let's hope so).

On another note, CNN keeps saying that "Jews, Americans and Britons were targeted" in the attacks, but so many Indians were killed and they barely mention this fact. I hate the way CNN is trying to make some tidy conclusion to this when it's so obviously more complicated than that.

cnn has been totally annoying with this statement as well.  And the fact that they are continuously running the story is also annoying as well.  They are definitely doing this for ratings and pandering to the Western audience.  I mean it is important, but it is not the only story, and it is also a way of fear mongering as well.  I think they are trying to scare everyone into thinking this will happen to you as well.  I think this is a horrible thing, but I don't think it would play out like that in the United States.  I don't think such an attack can happen in the USA, maybe I am naive, but that is what I think.  I think random attacks, like that schizophrenic Pakistani national who fired a gun in a Jewish community center in Seattle can happen, but nothing on such a large scale.

But you will see fancy hotels now beefing up their security.  The Jewish community center here in Portland totally went secure after 9/11 and it became a much less friendly place and so I quit the place out of disgust.  This type of stuff really destroys the soul of communities after a while and the terrorists do win in that way.

[etu]

This is different from the '92 and '93 Muslim-Hindu riots because then, the tension and violence was specifically a religious dispute. These attacks were on people of all religious (Muslims and Hindus were both killed by these Muslim attackers) and for seemingly no CLEAR reason other than to spread terror. So I don't think you'll see communal violence and anti-Muslim sentiment running high this time around. I think you'll see a lot of Indians coming together over this. (At least, let's hope so).

I dearly hope this is true.

Sometimes politicians have turned a horrific tragedy such as this into an opportunity to label all members of a group, in this case Muslims, as "terrorists." And then, when people are asked to help fight terrorism, guess who suffers? Certainly not the terrorists. So far, the news reports have been fairly devoid of distorted decrees by party leaders.

[LinKarish]

Oh. My. God.

Look at the fires just engulfing the Taj. 

[Andromache]

What sites are people visiting for more balanced news? CNN has been annoying me, as well.

[Spencer]

NY Time Op-Ed - What They Hate About Mumbai - http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/opinion/29mehta.html?hp

[etu]

What sites are people visiting for more balanced news? CNN has been annoying me, as well.

I don't know if this is up to the minute, but it seems carefully reported:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7754676.stm

We used BBC to see what was happening during 9/11 from work because it was impossible to get through to CNN that morning.

[LinKarish]

What sites are people visiting for more balanced news? CNN has been annoying me, as well.

^^OMG. I was just getting peeved over Chrisitiana Amanpour and her outdated facts.  

Get up to date, Amanpour.  The ISI chief is not coming down.  Manmohan Singh called the Pakistani P.M and demanded he come to India so they can show him the evidence.  He said yes.  But then the army general, Zardari and the P.M. met up.  Now, it's just a representative coming up.

If you're going go just try blame this all on Indian homegrown terrorists give freaking false equivalency in the name of balance, get your facts straight.  

So whatever way they are proving their non involvement (and I don't think the civilian gov't is involved), it IS NOT by sending their ISI head chief.  But I doubt freaking CNN will report that.  They don't get the significance of it.

CNN international maybe.

Andromache,
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/video/video_live.aspx?id=0
is not so bad now.  There was this one annoying, loud reporter all throught out the previous days and even today.  But since she's gone, and they're not hounding victims and family members now.

But it would be more in an Indian perspective.  

I was watching through both NDTV and CNN watching those blazes.  CNN never showed (probably cause they don't understand) how haunting or sad it is to watch.  NDTV reporters, you see them just covering their mouths as you do so yourself.  And they showed much more of the blaze, than CNN did as well. CNN's shots looked tame compared to the shots from NDTV.

If CNN international or BBC World have live streams, I would watch that.