English words in dialogue

[ljh]

Long time lover of BW films, new to this forum so I hope I am posting this in the correct place.

I have always wondered why certain English words are used in dialogues? I understand using technical terms (computer) that originated in another language, but I'm puzzled about words like "please" and "thank you". I mean "please" as in - "I am begging you with all my heart" not "please pass the butter". and it seems the more desperate the situation - the more the coversation is in English. When I was in India (where I saw my first BW film and was hooked!), the family I was staying with (in Madras) told me that they never use please and thank you with family - it was too formal. So, does it have anything to do with that? You wouldn't say please in Hindi - so you have to say it in English??? What about other words? Sometimes it just seems so random!

Any insight would be appreciated!

[Gabbah_Singh]

Possible reasons:

English is one of the official languages of India.

Hindi and Urdu are similar in terms of grammar and pronunciation. However in terms of vocabulary there can be strong differences. So the use of English words makes the differences between the two languages less apparent.

[ljh]

I read somewhere (probably on this site!) that in the films they speak a mixture of Hindi and Urdu....but if they are two different languages, isn't that confusing? How different are the two?

[songstorm]

Also, I think it's considered "hip." 

Sometimes it fits better in songs or with the tone of a movie, e.g., Dhoom 2 a very Westernized film has a lot of English.

With regards to the "please" thing, my teacher said that please and thank you are rarely used because the politeness is built into the language itself.  Maybe saying it in English lends emphasis that otherwise wouldn't be there.

And with regards to the distinction between Hindi and Urdu, I believe that they are essentially similar in speech, but Hindi derives from a Sanskrit background and Urdu from a Persian (or Arabic?) background--hence why the scripts look so incredibly different. 

[carla]

I read somewhere (probably on this site!) that in the films they speak a mixture of Hindi and Urdu....but if they are two different languages, isn't that confusing? How different are the two?

The statement "Hindi and Urdu are two different languages" is complex and political; in some ways it is true, and in others false.

One way to think of Hindi and Urdu is that they are not different languages at all; they are two ends of a spectrum, and the language of films sits right in the middle. 

The base grammar of both Hindi and Urdu is descended from Sanskrit; it's a sister to Panjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, and other languages spoken across northern India.  In addition to vocabulary traceable to Sanskrit, Hindi and Urdu both have a lot of vocabulary borrowed from Persian, Arabic, English, and other sources. 

The main differences today between what is called "Hindi" and what is called "Urdu" are (1) writing system, and (2) vocabulary used in higher registers - acadamic, scholarly, poetic writing, as well as newly-coined vocabulary.

With respect to (1), Hindi tends to be written in Devanagari, essentially the script of Sanskrit, while Urdu tends to be written in an adapted version of the Persian script, which is itself adapted from Arabic.  But a writing system is not a language; Urdu is sometimes also written in Gurmukhi (Panjabi script) and even sometimes in Devanagari. 

With respect to (2), Hindi tends more towards words derived from Sanskrit while Urdu tends more toward words derived from Persian and Arabic sources.  As I noted above there are a wide variety of words from both sources used in both Hindi and Urdu.  But in poetic and academic registers the general statement that Hindi vocabulary is Sanskritic while Urdu is Perso-Arabic generally holds.  And for new coinages, just as English goes to Latin and Greek to create new technical vocabulary, Hindi goes to Sanskrit while Urdu goes to Persian or Arabic. 

As you might guess, there is a cultural and religious aspect to the division, and a political one as well, as Urdu tends to be favored by Muslims and Hindi by Hindus. 

I hope that helps.     You can read a lot about this in the Wikipedia entries for both Hindi and Urdu. 

[Daniel]

Possible reasons:

English is one of the official languages of India.

Hindi and Urdu are similar in terms of grammar and pronunciation. However in terms of vocabulary there can be strong differences. So the use of English words makes the differences between the two languages less apparent.

this is true to an extent, but I dont think this is the real reason. Look at the language of films from the 70's 80s, but especially the 50s and 60s.  The films were solidly Urdu and that wasnt a problem for anyone.  Part of this had to do with the fact that a large percentage of the actors and writers were muslim (even if they, like Dilip Kumar) changed their name.  And everyone could understand the movies.  But with the rise of Hindu nationalism this tradition of dialogue has been corrupted and destroyed, and hindi is much more prevalent than it was. 
As for English, it mainly has to do with it being hip, and coo.  But of course, it is also hip becuase films MAKE it hip.  Fashion is defined by music and movies, and that means bollywood.  Scripts are usually written in English and then later translated into the "vernacular."  Many actors can't speak Hindi (or any Indian language for that matter.)   You can see this issue played with in Om Shanti Om...compare the dialog of the first half with that of the second.  Good clean urdu in the first half, dripping with english in the second.

[ljh]

Wow, thanks for all your input. It is much more complex than I would have imagined. And I never would have imagined that the scripts are first written in English! So glad I found this site - you all are a gold mine! Thanks!

[Cloudbase]

If this topic is somewhere else please direct me there, but it has long puzzled me the way dialogue will be rolling along in Hindi and then suddenly include a phrase or sentence in English. And it's not just an English word imported into the language like French 'joi de vivre' imported into English speech, but random sentences.

Where does this come from? Is it just Hindi films (I can't think of examples in Tamil films I've seen)? Is there a reason for it? eg extra emphasis on a statement, status...

[Istina]

Simple answer: people speak like that in India, mixing both English and Hindi. As you might know, English is an official language in India. There are people in India who speak not a lick of English and then you have people who only grew up speaking English at home. Along with that, many Indians are educated in English. It's probably a blanket statement to make, but generally those of the middle-to-upper classes have some familiarity with English. Therefore, in India, being conversant in English can be a status symbol.

Arguably, some movies are better able to illustrate this than others. In Jab We Met, the English that was included felt natural to me. But then you have films where English is added to a point where it's overkill so that the film has a more "cool" vibe. Mileages vary on that, I'm sure, though.

[v9y]

this is true to an extent, but I dont think this is the real reason. Look at the language of films from the 70's 80s, but especially the 50s and 60s.  The films were solidly Urdu and that wasnt a problem for anyone.  Part of this had to do with the fact that a large percentage of the actors and writers were muslim (even if they, like Dilip Kumar) changed their name.  And everyone could understand the movies.  But with the rise of Hindu nationalism this tradition of dialogue has been corrupted and destroyed, and hindi is much more prevalent than it was. 

I don't get it. You mean to say that when the dialogues were predominantly in "Urdu", they were "solid" and now when the dialogues are in "Hindi" they are corrupt and destroyed?  And when Muslims were writing everyone could understand the movies and when Hindus started writing, suddenly everything went wrong and no one could understand the movies anymore? I want to first be sure if that's really what you meant before I try to answer this.

[v9y]

Simple answer: people speak like that in India, mixing both English and Hindi. As you might know, English is an official language in India. There are people in India who speak not a lick of English and then you have people who only grew up speaking English at home. Along with that, many Indians are educated in English. It's probably a blanket statement to make, but generally those of the middle-to-upper classes have some familiarity with English. Therefore, in India, being conversant in English can be a status symbol.

Arguably, some movies are better able to illustrate this than others. In Jab We Met, the English that was included felt natural to me. But then you have films where English is added to a point where it's overkill so that the film has a more "cool" vibe. Mileages vary on that, I'm sure, though.

You are right. Another point to note is that movies tend to reflect the dialect or speech of its characters. So a "Munnabhai" will speak current Mumbaiya Hindi and "Umrao Jaan" will have the Lucknow flavor of the era in question.

As it happens, most of the current movie plots are centred in the urban Indian landscape and the lead characters are young and educated in English. That demographic does speak their Hindi sprinkled with English words and phrases. However, to extrapolate that kind of speech to the whole of India will produce a wrong picture.

When you say "There are people in India who speak not a lick of English and then you have people who only grew up speaking English at home. " you are talking about people divided by a wide margin on many levels including numbers. The latter are not even a tenth of a percent of Indian population. According to the last census (in 2001), there were merely 0.021% native speakers of English; people who would grow up speaking English at home. There are of course a much larger number of people who can speak English (mostly TooTii-PhooTii) as a second language. But English is nowhere close to be one of the most spoken languages in India. And yet, it has an immense status and power in Indian psyche. Because it is spoken at the "right" places. It is the language of the elite, the well-offs, the officials, the corporates, the bollywood actors. It follows money (and vice versa). To most industries, which includes Bollywood too, that is the India that matters.

[Cloudbase]

Simple answer: people speak like that in India, mixing both English and Hindi. As you might know, English is an official language in India. There are people in India who speak not a lick of English and then you have people who only grew up speaking English at home. Along with that, many Indians are educated in English. It's probably a blanket statement to make, but generally those of the middle-to-upper classes have some familiarity with English. Therefore, in India, being conversant in English can be a status symbol.

Arguably, some movies are better able to illustrate this than others. In Jab We Met, the English that was included felt natural to me. But then you have films where English is added to a point where it's overkill so that the film has a more "cool" vibe. Mileages vary on that, I'm sure, though.

Thanks for the answer to that. So am I right in thinking that in this type of conversation, an English sentence would be used purely at random and not for any particular emotional or linguistic effect?

[omlick]

I don't know about films going to Hindi or whatever, but I know that most of the time when I read any devanagari literature, to me it is almost a different language.  Sometimes I think, is this still Hindi or did it become Japanese?  But I think it is a rewarding experience to read something and actually be able to translate it into eloquent English.

In devanagari writing, the words are mostly leaning toward the sanskritic side, but they will also use some good urdu words too, and not very common ones at that a lot of the time.  Great for building vocabulary.