Punjabi

[Daniel]

I will make my punjabi related questions and comments in this thread.

1)  Punjabi has tones?!?!  This is news to me.  Can someone tell me how seroius these tones are?  The book I am reading cites the following 3 words for their example: kóRa (horse), "ko_Ra" (whip), and "ko'Ra" (Whisper).  How serious are these tones.  I have never noticed a tonal feel to punjabi. 

[maxqnz]

I will make my punjabi related questions and comments in this thread.

1)  Punjabi has tones?!?!  This is news to me.  Can someone tell me how seroius these tones are?  The book I am reading cites the following 3 words for their example: ko'Ra (horse), "ko_Ra" (whip), and "kóRa" (Whisper).  How seroious are these tones.  I have never noticed a tonal feel to punjabi. 

When I decided  to learn an Indic language, I opted for Hindi rather than Punjabi precisely because EVERY textbook I  got hold of described Punjabi as tonal.  I will be interested to read the responses to this thread.

[James]

What resources are you using, Daniel?

[Gabbah_Singh]

Panjabi is a tone language like swedish, norwegian and chinese. very often the meanings of a sound sequence depends on the pitch of voice or tone used in pronouncing it.

[Daniel]

a cool page to learn some basic punjabi at, great for reading if you know hindi. http://www.punjabonline.com/servlet/library.language?Action=Main

James, im using this grammar book made for linguists who want to study a language, not learn it.  SO we will see how that goes.  I just need to find some time to open it up

[panjabigator]

Ask your questions away...I will answer what I know and the rest I can enquire on!  Im not fluent, but I can speak it to some degree with my fam

[Prem Rogue]

I will make my punjabi related questions and comments in this thread.

1)  Punjabi has tones?!?!  This is news to me.  Can someone tell me how seroius these tones are?  The book I am reading cites the following 3 words for their example: kóRa (horse), "ko_Ra" (whip), and "ko'Ra" (Whisper).  How serious are these tones.  I have never noticed a tonal feel to punjabi. 

By "tones" do you mean that semi-"d" sound that the "r" in transliterated words sometimes have?  Its like the tongue starts at the hard palette of the mouth and quickly lashes to the floor of the mouth.

[Daniel]

No I think it has to do with the /o/ that comes before it.  At least according to the book i read from the descriptive grammar series, its the tone that the /o/ is being pronounced in that creates the variation in meaning.  Thats just so suprising since the languages you typically thing of as tonal are chinese/thai, etc.  Never expected an Indian language to be tonal.

[ShArDeE]

I don't know why I can't seem to understand when you guys all type it out the proper "transliterated" way lol. I just know my hindi and punjabi by how I speak it, so I'm not too sure about spellings, and/or reading the actual material...But yes, Punjabi does work that way..I can't seem to get another example into my mind right now...but the kora one is a good example. I have a really stupid example - I don't know if you'll get it or if it even really applies but it's been prime to my friends' attempts at pissing ME off. Makki and Makhi lol...again, I don't know hwo to do the word thing, but one if fly and the other is liek Makhi roti...which i really can't think of the english term for either. the yelow flour rotiya..
oh god, meinu ni patah
I swear, physics early in the morning messes with your mind!

[Daniel]

well thats slightly different too.  THats more of the difference between an aspirate and a nonaspirate, or perhaps a doubling. 

[panjabigator]

Examples

In hindi, the word "ghar" (house) is pronounced  "Kar", which a tone, which kind of goes up and down

the "k" is pronounced with a high tone and the "ar" ends in a lower tone

jhuut (lie), becomes "chuut" with a similar tone pattern

bhuuk (hungar) becomes "Phook"

Dhol (drum) becomes "thol"


In writing, (at least in gurumukhi....I dont know how they would write it in devanagri or nastaliq, but I assume it is the same) they are written with the letter as gh, jh, DH, dh, bh

[jamie]

I'm so happy there are people learning Panjabi out there!  I'm learning very slowly..  Hindi really does help because so much of the vocab is similar / the same.

 

[Daniel]

Punjabi gator, you can read gurumukhi right?  I have a few questions about it....

Of the letters you mentioned above that are sometimes not pronounced as they are spelt: how often is this the case, and how do I know when and which letters to vary the pronunciation.

Some words whose pronunciation im wondering about are below.  Since I dont know their pronunciation, how about I just give the hindi equivelent and you tell me how to pronounce them properly in punjabi:

yah, voh, kaunsa.

thanky.

[panjabigator]

Punjabi gator, you can read gurumukhi right?  I have a few questions about it....

Of the letters you mentioned above that are sometimes not pronounced as they are spelt: how often is this the case, and how do I know when and which letters to vary the pronunciation.

Some words whose pronunciation im wondering about are below.  Since I dont know their pronunciation, how about I just give the hindi equivelent and you tell me how to pronounce them properly in punjabi:

yah, voh, kaunsa.

thanky.

I can read/write gurmukhi..yeop!
Are you referring to the aspirated ones?  Hmmm...too my knowledge they are always pronounced tonaly

Yah--eh
Woh-oh
Kaunsaa--keRaa

lemme know if I answered your question...I have a feeling I didnt:(

[Daniel]

yes you did!

Well, above you said that dhool would be pronounced as thool.  does that mean all dh's are pronounced as TH, or just some.  for example, would kandh (wall) be kanth?

[panjabigator]

yes you did!

Well, above you said that dhool would be pronounced as thool.  does that mean all dh's are pronounced as TH, or just some.  for example, would kandh (wall) be kanth?

Oh crap...you got me!
Hmmm....I dont know how to provide a reason...shayad Sharde de sakegi....!  It is Kandh...

I have a feeling it is initial sounds and not terminal...but I cant generalize.  If you can find a copy of Punjabi Cognitive Grammar, look in there for the real reason....mere paas javaab nahii.n hain:(

[ShArDeE]

Punjabi gator, you can read gurumukhi right?  I have a few questions about it....

Of the letters you mentioned above that are sometimes not pronounced as they are spelt: how often is this the case, and how do I know when and which letters to vary the pronunciation.

Some words whose pronunciation im wondering about are below.  Since I dont know their pronunciation, how about I just give the hindi equivelent and you tell me how to pronounce them properly in punjabi:

yah, voh, kaunsa.

thanky.

I can read/write gurmukhi..yeop!
Are you referring to the aspirated ones?  Hmmm...too my knowledge they are always pronounced tonaly

Yah--eh
Woh-oh
Kaunsaa--keRaa

lemme know if I answered your question...I have a feeling I didnt:(

Depending on the speaker "kehRA" is often pronounced "kehDA" - the r's and d's are often interchanged...or else it just sounds that way
and uh, no its not kanth...its kandh! you can't base it on just one rule, and it's kind of confusing..
I don't have a real reason though

[panjabigator]

Punjabi gator, you can read gurumukhi right?  I have a few questions about it....

Of the letters you mentioned above that are sometimes not pronounced as they are spelt: how often is this the case, and how do I know when and which letters to vary the pronunciation.

Some words whose pronunciation im wondering about are below.  Since I dont know their pronunciation, how about I just give the hindi equivelent and you tell me how to pronounce them properly in punjabi:

yah, voh, kaunsa.

thanky.

I can read/write gurmukhi..yeop!
Are you referring to the aspirated ones?  Hmmm...too my knowledge they are always pronounced tonaly

Yah--eh
Woh-oh
Kaunsaa--keRaa

lemme know if I answered your question...I have a feeling I didnt:(

Depending on the speaker "kehRA" is often pronounced "kehDA" - the r's and d's are often interchanged...or else it just sounds that way
and uh, no its not kanth...its kandh! you can't base it on just one rule, and it's kind of confusing..
I don't have a real reason though

I meant the sound from when you say saRak....but I dont know if people spell here with a D or an R..

[panjabigator]

Also....kanth means throat in punjabi (galaa)....I think its the same in hindi too!

[Daniel]

and uh, no its not kanth...its kandh! you can't base it on just one rule, and it's kind of confusing..

Aram se yaar, aram se. I'm not basing anything on a rule, Im just asking some questions to try and deduce what the rule is.  Give me some support here!

[ber]

Can you please use Gurmukhi script as well, please? Because ਗੁਰਮੁਖੀ is so much easier to read than romanized stuff, at least to me.

[Daniel]

I can, but only if you can tell me the fastest way to input gurumukhi.  I have the punjabi keyboard installed on my computer, but there is no phonetic IME that I can find, nor any free-standing programs like webduniya.  Is the only option really only to memorize they keyboard layout (having to constantly switch between english, urdu, and farsi ones is getting rough). 

[ber]

I use gucharmap. Using it is probably not the fastest way to type gurmukhi but I think it's fast enough once you know the chart quite well.

[panjabigator]

try this: http://www.apnaradio.com/free_software.asp

and ukindia.com for people who want to learn how to read it.  They also have tutorials on Devanagri and Nastaliq.  I still haven' quite figured out how to post gurmukhi....let alone devanagri or nastaliq!

[ShArDeE]

and uh, no its not kanth...its kandh! you can't base it on just one rule, and it's kind of confusing..

Aram se yaar, aram se. I'm not basing anything on a rule, Im just asking some questions to try and deduce what the rule is.  Give me some support here!

Ohh! I'm sorry I didn't mean to make it sound like..the "uh" was my "thinking process" haha. I'm sorry!! Don't hate me
But yea, just generally, I don't think theres any specific way to describe it in a single rule...I say words based on what SOUNDS right - that's about as far as MY grammar goes 

You know I love ya!