Indian English: legitimate, or in need of cleanup? (The politics of subtitling)

[DCgal]

Another usage is to dismiss something by repeating the word with a different first syllable, as in "He hasn't got any house-vouse, he's fooling you". I've noticed Americans do this too, but they use 'shm' instead of 'v' as the replacement syllable.

This is a Yiddishism that has been adopted into mainstream American speech.  It's usually also then followed by a dismissive question, as in:

"car, schmar - what - now you can't walk with your parents?"
"house, schmouse - who'd believe what he has to say about a house, anyhow?"

[tanya]

Just came across this Indian English dictionary and thought I'd share. (Don't think it was mentioned upthread?)

http://www.vsubhash.com/desienglish.asp

[leaf]

Just came across this Indian English dictionary and thought I'd share. (Don't think it was mentioned upthread?)

http://www.vsubhash.com/desienglish.asp

Great find, tanya. Though the dictionary doesn't contain one of my favourite Indian English words, which is "senti". It is such a useful and specific word and I don't think there is an equivalent in any of the other English dialects. Or, the newer term, "giving a missed call", because SMS is cheaper than actually talking.

[Ms. Chandni]

Great find, tanya. Though the dictionary doesn't contain one of my favourite Indian English words, which is "senti". It is such a useful and specific word and I don't think there is an equivalent in any of the other English dialects. Or, the newer term, "giving a missed call", because SMS is cheaper than actually talking.

What does "senti" mean?

[bollyking]

hesitant to post...i can just see this well worth discussing topic spewing off on some pointless tangent down the line, but here goes.

I think there is a need to first recognize that there isnt really a universal or even 'correct' form of English. Unfortunately there is a lot of BS nationalism/jingoism causing problems.

Some my desi friends think that because they come from a commonwealth country, they speak proper english and it is the americans who need to learn how others speak. And some americans seem to think that everyone ought to conform to american english since america is the hegemon in international business.

I dont think it needs cleaning up but i think people ought to know what expressions, pronunciations etc are not used in foreign countries because that will help facilitate communication. I remember telling my parents all the time, 'dekho, people in america dont pronounce calcium "cal-shum" and that 'gaol' is not how 'jail' is spelled here, among other such things.

Shashi Tharoor was saying in an interview that irregardless of what form of english you think is correct, if you work in a call center job you need to be able to speak the form of english that the customer is familiar with. You cant argue with him that HIS/HER english is wrong if you want to be competitive (though politicians would prob disagree).

In Iran we have a similar problem with people using different dialects and there's all kinds of arguing as to what is proper and what isnt. The rule is, it is good manners to speak to someone in their mode/dialect if you can. Also for business they encourage people to learn up the different words and phrases rather than flog one standard form.

[Ms. Chandni]

^^What I think is sad is that here in the states a lot of the regional dialects are disppearing and everyone sounds like they do on tv and movies.  Where I live, the local accent & quirky words don't mark you as a native so much anymore, but as someone who isn't educated, which is kind of sad.  My parents, aunts & uncles used phrases that were so cute, but no one I know my age uses them.  Although I once died of embarrassment when my dad asked a boy I liked what his "pappy" did for a living.  Another pet peeve I have (and I'm monolingual so can only use English as an example) is in American films/tv if they want to portray someone as tough, criminal or working class they give them a Brooklyn accent.  Sorry if I took the topic on a tangent like Bollyking predicted!

[leaf]

What does "senti" mean?

Short for "sentimental". Depending on the way it's used, it can mean related, but different things.
Examples:
a)Don't be so senti, ya. Mummy will let you go tomorrow.
b)She was being very senti and I didn't know how to tell her.
c)I like Shahrukh Khan's senti films.

[tanya]

Great find, tanya. Though the dictionary doesn't contain one of my favourite Indian English words, which is "senti". It is such a useful and specific word and I don't think there is an equivalent in any of the other English dialects. Or, the newer term, "giving a missed call", because SMS is cheaper than actually talking.

New one for me. (I think you can suggest it to the compiler of that dictionary.) Can you use it in a sentence?

I just glanced through it and I think it had my favorites.

hesitant to post...i can just see this well worth discussing topic spewing off on some pointless tangent down the line, but here goes.

I think there is a need to first recognize that there isnt really a universal or even 'correct' form of English. Unfortunately there is a lot of BS nationalism/jingoism causing problems.

Some my desi friends think that because they come from a commonwealth country, they speak proper english and it is the americans who need to learn how others speak. And some americans seem to think that everyone ought to conform to american english since america is the hegemon in international business.

Eh , I haven't read this entire thread in a year, so I can't remember all the twists and turns it took, but surely the conclusion was that there is no one "English."  There's plenty of regional American English-isms that could fill a dictionary. (After moving to NYC, I quickly learned that one waited "on" line, not "in" line.)

However, when playing Scrabble I often accuse those not from the US of adding a U to a lot of words solely to beat me. Serves them right if they get the Q and are all out.

[Aliya]

We also used the word 'senti' to mean 'unnecessary fuss', derived from the fact that the fuss is based on getting sentimental. LOL!

So when you went visiting, and a friend offered something and wanted to know whether you wanted it... this way or ...you wanted it that way..., you just answered,

Don't get senti... this is just fine. 

[leaf]

Now entire world can prepone like Indians only

Malini Nair / DNASunday, February 28, 2010 1:43 IST
 
Mumbai: In correct, corseted English, the word ‘prepone’ does not exist. It is a word coined by Indians who are in such a rush to “move to an earlier time than was originally planned” that they cannot waste words. But as of this week, you can go ahead and officially prepone that meeting/vacation/wedding and be correct.

The eighth edition of the Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary (OALD) is here and India power has pushed into the English lexicon a number of desi usages that your English teacher would have run a red pen through.

“Indian English is a big influence on the evolution of the language. Of the 2 billion words that form the Oxford English corpus, 2 per cent is contributed by Indian usage. That is a large number if you consider that a whole lot of nations from South Africa to New Zealand affect the usage of English,” says Alison Waters, publishing manager, ELT Dictionaries Department of Oxford University Press, UK.

The OALD is a dictionary aimed at people for whom English is a second language or who are not strong with the language. The words listed here and in the main Oxford dictionary are more or less the same. What differs is how the word is explained to the dictionary user.

When the sun had not set on the Raj, Indian English speakers had no choice but to toe the line set by the classicists. Queen’s English, points out Waters, was an ‘aspirational’ thing. The fact was that 60 per cent of English speakers do not use it.

Imperialism is way behind us now, the Indian diaspora is too huge to be sidelined, and it is perfectly okay to claim unabashedly in bad English, ‘We are like that only’. It was only a matter of time before the linguistic establishment reacted to the change.

Sociolinguist Anvita Abbi points out that Indians play jugaad with language as they do in every other sphere of life. What starts off as a matter of convenience becomes so popular that it has to find its way into the official lexicon. “Well, now we are making our own rules in English. We all understand that that ‘pone’ means nothing and that the prefix post has a definite meaning. So we coin a new word that is coined in the same pattern of the existing morphology. There is no violation of rules here really,” she explains.

‘Encounters’, for instance, are hardly ever as deadly in other English-speaking nations as they are in India. Here they clearly mean a shootout orchestrated by the police and has easily become such an integral part of the English lexicon that it is beyond the reach of a purist’s disapproval. OALD has included this interesting variant usage of the word in the new edition.

The common Indian use of the verb ‘revert’ too has the OALD stamp now. Indians use it mostly to refer to response to a communication rather than its conventional meaning (‘go back to a previous state’). The dictionary also points out that in India a ‘mishap’ could mean a really serious accident and not just a trivial one as in the western usage of the word.

The seventh edition of the OALD ratified a revolutionary number of Indianisms as official English. The eighth edition further expands the pool. Digital technology, politics, economics have all contributed to foreign words and uses creeping into the language.

But there is so far and no further even OALD would go. “This is a big debate but the dictionary still has to reflect what the ideal pattern should be. English does not have an Academie Francaise to set rules but we can set out some norms and then point out that these are common mistakes users make,” says Waters.

It takes more than just a chance encounter with a word for a lexicographer to start taking it seriously enough. If it has to get into the dictionary it has to be reflected widely enough in the society. OALD, for instance, looks for at least 100 citations before it welcomes a non-English word in. This means keeping a sharp lookout for words that appear too frequently to be dismissed.

Lexicographers go beyond just newspapers and books to find this affirmation: menu cards, courtroom minutes, council meeting reports, business communications, and now blogs and websites too are sources of information.

But words and their uses, like political circumstances, are ephemeral, says Waters. Words such as ‘telegram’, ‘cold war’, ‘perestroika’ and ‘glasnost’ which were widely used in their times are no longer current and get edged out of dictionaries after a period of struggle. Ironically, ‘fakir’ are back in the dictionary, even if they are a dwindling community.

It is, of course, a sign of the times we live in that ‘niqab’, ‘sawm’ and ‘kirpan’ have found their way into the OALD.
http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/report_now-entire-world-can-prepone-like-indians-only_1353503

[kmemphis]

However, when playing Scrabble I often accuse those not from the US of adding a U to a lot of words solely to beat me. Serves them right if they get the Q and are all out.

LOL!

I think before playing Scrabble (or Boggle), players should say what language and dialect they're using. Only fair, or else I'd start throwing French in there while my mom puts down dog.

[bollyking]

If NRI's began inserting a lot of American/British accented hindi words into their hindi lexicon, people in india would be telling them that their hindi has been corrupted, not that they're speaking some 'correct' version of their own dialect. "Excuse me, do you have any naaaan here?"-American Desi

Differences in the use of english between lets say, america and new zealand only have to do with local vocabulary and slang words. There certainly isnt any difference in the grammar. Proper english grammar is proper grammar. So if an indian guy says, "how are you being doing this?" no, sorry, that's not indian english, its just rubbish.

If we want to use words like encounter, godown, fine--but we ought to know that outsiders are not going to understand what we're talking about and shouldnt expect that they learn them. My english colleagues dont ask americans 'where's the loo?' because no one uses that word here.

[kmemphis]

My english colleagues dont ask americans 'where's the loo?' because no one uses that word here.

They probably would - I know loo, lorry, and lift.

"Oh those quaint brits - "loo" for bathroom!" (insert obnoxious American accent where needed)

I should say I knew about loo and lift long before I started reading or watching anything British.

[DCgal]

Grammar, like words themselves is a varying and changing thing.

"Do the needful," a very common Indian-English phrase, sounds weird to an American, but is fine. Not long ago using "got" for "have" in American-English was considered wrong (You got a problem with that?), while now it isn't.  Our language has been in constant flux for thousands of years and will continue to evolve and change. The American version of grammar is not the gold standard, it's just what sounds normal to us.

That said, I still can't get used to hearing "isn't it?" at the end of sentences to indicate emphasis.  That's an Indian-English thing that I cannot decide if I think is cute or just annoying.

[mala]

However, when playing Scrabble I often accuse those not from the US of adding a U to a lot of words solely to beat me. Serves them right if they get the Q and are all out.

^^ This I just had to quote for funniness.


This thread reminds me of when I went to India, and was switching from the international to the domestic airport in Delhi.  The security guard guy was telling everyone where to go as we were entering the building.  So, like everyone else, when it was my turn I told him where my destination was.  Then he tried to give me directions.  I kept hearing "go straight and then up to left", but that didn't make any sense with where he was pointing.  And when I repeated it and made hand motions to indicate my understanding, he would shake his head and repeat himself.  Then I asked for him to say it in hindi - but I guess I don't understand hindi as well as I thought, so I couldn't even understand that, and asked him to go back to english.  Finally, after making a fool of myself, it struck me that he was saying "lift" not "left".  He wanted me to take the elevator.  D'OH!!  

[Dil Bert]

That said, I still can't get used to hearing "isn't it?" at the end of sentences to indicate emphasis.  That's an Indian-English thing that I cannot decide if I think is cute or just annoying.

London teen orders 'cab, innit' Supposedly a hoax...

[LinKarish]

Speaking of grammar changing,

I think I see "who" instead of "whom" almost everyday--written by Journalists.

[latishya]

Speaking of grammar changing,

I think I see "who" instead of "whom" almost everyday--written by Journalists.

'whom' is dying. ask any professional inguist as opposed to some pedant hung up on the prescriptivist lunacy that is strunk and white and they will tell you the same thing. no living language has an unchanging grammar and the gradual abandonment of the already long anachronistic 'whom' is another sign of the vitality and ongoing evolution of english. it was after all the last of our dative pronouns to survive the others disappeared long ago and no-one mourns *them*.

[DCgal]

'whom' is dying. ask any professional inguist as opposed to some pedant hung up on the prescriptivist lunacy that is strunk and white and they will tell you the same thing. no living language has an unchanging grammar and the gradual abandonment of the already long anachronistic 'whom' is another sign of the vitality and ongoing evolution of english. it was after all the last of our dative pronouns to survive the others disappeared long ago and no-one mourns *them*.

I still use "whom" and see the lack of its use as uneducated, but I see your point.  After all we gave up the formal "thou" years ago and unlike other languages don't have any formal/informal split anymore.

[latishya]

I still use "whom"

so do i. i just managed to adjust to the reality that the one constant in language, as in the cosmos, is change. 'nice' once meant 'stupid' and 'fond' meant 'fool' - every generation thinks its language is going to the dogs but the reality is is its a glorious process of evolution, not a degeneration.

[someone]

'whom' is still standard in India, and I thought in the UK and OZ-NZ as well. I find the use of 'who' typically by Americans very weird (not that I care). How difficult is it? Use 'whom' where you'd use him, her, etc and 'who' where you'd use 'I, he, she' (subject of the sentence) - I hope I got the rule right (childhood-age speaker of English here who doesn't remember the rules but always uses 'whom' correctly without needing to think about it).

[LinKarish]

^^It's not that hard to use.  I don't understand why Journalists don't use it in their articles, orwhy the proof-readers/copy editors/editors don't catch it and correct it.

I have seen the mistake in one British piece.  I can't recall of anymore, thankfully.

With India, I've seen Vir Sanghvi, who once wrote about the essentials of good grammar, make this mistake over and over and over again. I don't think he's unknowingly making the mistake.  I wish someone would tweet to him, or comment to on his site, since he still sometimes talks about the essential of grammar.

ETA: Though with Vir Sanghvi, it may be fixed in the HT publication.  I'm not sure. I'll have to look out for that. I usually read at his site.

Also, Indian grammar is slowly going down the drains.  It's not surprising anymore to hear people start a sentence with "me and."  

[Ranranbolly]

'whom' is still standard in India, and I thought in the UK and OZ-NZ as well. I find the use of 'who' typically by Americans very weird (not that I care). How difficult is it? Use 'whom' where you'd use him, her, etc and 'who' where you'd use 'I, he, she' (subject of the sentence) - I hope I got the rule right (childhood-age speaker of English here who doesn't remember the rules but always uses 'whom' correctly without needing to think about it).

Not easy to remember to use when you grow up hearing people only use the word 'who' and are only informed of the proper word 'whom' in English class.

And I'd prefer to heart Indian English as opposed to Ebonics any day.